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Post by impulse on Feb 16, 2021 18:10:54 GMT -5
It's not Miller's fault other writers missed the (fairly obvious, really) point and intent of a one-off what-if-type scenario. Unfortunate, maybe, but not his fault, and as to the intent of this thread, that story worked IMO within its own context.
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Post by chadwilliam on Feb 16, 2021 19:06:29 GMT -5
Yeah, but its intriguing to have a normal human rise "above his station" to challenge someone who could easily kill any other ordinary human. It shows the human mind can overcome what all others would describe as impossible or suicidal. The problem though is that given the enormous advantage one has over the other, Batman bridging the monumental gap between his and Superman's standing requires more than just Batman being able to rise to an impossible challenge, but also necessitates that Superman be so incompetent and stupid that he squanders every single advantage he had to start with.
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Post by Duragizer on Feb 16, 2021 22:38:42 GMT -5
I have a difficult time giving Miller the benefit of the doubt with his oeuvre these past thirty-odd years painting a very different picture of his sensibilities.
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 17, 2021 6:14:38 GMT -5
Pretty much every time two heroes clashed and found themselves absolutely equally matched until they decided to call a truce. Why didn't Namor just fling Ben Grimm into the ocean? Actually, Namor did beat a few heroes decisively but used the tired line " I can't allow a valiant foe to perish".
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Post by impulse on Feb 17, 2021 10:06:15 GMT -5
I don't see that Miller needs any benefit of the doubt. The story, as written, works fine for what it is. It was a very specific set of circumstances that allowed Batman to... not even win, just accomplish his goal. If Superman were fully trying to take out Batman, he would have. It took all of Batman's efforts and abilities as well very unique circumstances to allow him to hold his own for just a few minutes, including Superman not wanting to beat the snot out of him. In any remotely normal situation, Batman wouldn't stand a chance against a determined Superman, but this wasn't any normal situation. It was an incredibly unique one-off series of coincidences and factors.
Not to excuse anything else Miller has done recently, mind you.
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Post by dbutler69 on Feb 18, 2021 19:19:33 GMT -5
#5
Thundra and the Thing Fantastic Four #133The Thing is one of the powerhouses of the MU , he has gone toe to toe with the Hulk. There's no way Thundra destroys him like this. Yeah, I read this just a couple of months ago, and had trouble with it. It's like the Thing isn't even trying. Maybe Roy Thomas was trying to hype up his creation.
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Post by dbutler69 on Feb 18, 2021 19:20:58 GMT -5
#9 Spider-Man /Quicksilver Amazing Spider-man # 71
Sorry, no way that Spider-man could stop Pietro this way. I thought that Quicksilver saw everyone as statues because of his speed. He would see Spidey sticking his arm out. Calling Confessor ! Stat! I think you could say that any time a speedster loses to anybody. They should be able to knock their opponent out before said opponent even has a chance to think, and nobody should ever be able to touch them.
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Post by badwolf on Feb 18, 2021 20:36:01 GMT -5
#5
Thundra and the Thing Fantastic Four #133The Thing is one of the powerhouses of the MU , he has gone toe to toe with the Hulk. There's no way Thundra destroys him like this. Yeah, I read this just a couple of months ago, and had trouble with it. It's like the Thing isn't even trying. Maybe Roy Thomas was trying to hype up his creation. Now that I think about it, the Femizons weren't even super-powered were they? (I've only read the Lyra story in The Superhero Women.) Was Thundra different somehow?
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Post by dbutler69 on Feb 19, 2021 10:41:36 GMT -5
Yeah, I read this just a couple of months ago, and had trouble with it. It's like the Thing isn't even trying. Maybe Roy Thomas was trying to hype up his creation. Now that I think about it, the Femizons weren't even super-powered were they? (I've only read the Lyra story in The Superhero Women.) Was Thundra different somehow? Yes, Thundra was superpowered, and though she was the Femizons' top warrior, I'm not sure it was established at this time just how superior she was to her "sisters". So, I think she was supposed to be different, though how different, I don't think was well established at this time. I suspect Roy was making it up as he went along. In later years it would be apparent she was very, strong, but it the point of this story, it's kinda murky. For what it's worth, the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe from 1983 lists Thundra as being able to lift 65 tons and the Thing 85 tons, but then, looking at Thundra's origin there, it seems quite a bit different from what is implied in these early FF issues.
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Post by profh0011 on Feb 19, 2021 10:59:34 GMT -5
When I re-read all those Marvels some years back, it struck me that Thundra was Roy Thomas' take-off on Jack Kirby's BIG BARDA, only dressed in a "Captain Marvel" style outfit.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Feb 19, 2021 11:30:01 GMT -5
When I read comments about what Frank Miller has done recently, I think "Sin City".
Gawd, I'm old.
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Post by badwolf on Feb 19, 2021 11:41:03 GMT -5
When I read comments about what Frank Miller has done recently, I think "Sin City". Gawd, I'm old. I think the most recent thing I've read was Master Race. I enjoyed it.
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Post by Hoosier X on Feb 19, 2021 11:41:37 GMT -5
When I read comments about what Frank Miller has done recently, I think "Sin City". Gawd, I'm old. The first Sin City MOVIE is fifteen years old.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Feb 19, 2021 11:42:38 GMT -5
When I read comments about what Frank Miller has done recently, I think "Sin City". Gawd, I'm old. The first Sin City MOVIE is fifteen years old. Now you're making me CRY!!!
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Post by impulse on Feb 19, 2021 13:47:43 GMT -5
When I read comments about what Frank Miller has done recently, I think "Sin City". Gawd, I'm old. The first Sin City MOVIE is fifteen years old. Nobody asked! LOL
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