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Post by james on Dec 4, 2020 15:30:39 GMT -5
Dematties and Giffen on Justice League of America.
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Post by spoon on Dec 4, 2020 16:12:38 GMT -5
Going back to first post and the idea of a creator with the Midas touch (i.e., someone who has transformed series/characters multiple times), I'd say Steve Englehart. I can think of several series or characters where there's a noticeable improvement in quality and inventiveness when he comes in: Captain America, Doctor Strange, Incredible Hulk, Green Lantern.
But with the one-time examples, I'd say Mike Baron and Jackson Guice with Wally West. Their Wally is quite a departure from what he was before. It's been a while since I read it, and I think I recall him being a jerk fairly often, but he was a more textured character than what he was in New Teen Titans before that.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2020 16:38:17 GMT -5
I agree with those who said Morrison on JLA and Byrne on FF. I would also add Joe Kubert when Tarzan switched from Dell to DC.
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Post by james on Dec 7, 2020 20:00:38 GMT -5
Going back to first post and the idea of a creator with the Midas touch (i.e., someone who has transformed series/characters multiple times), I'd say Steve Englehart. I can think of several series or characters where there's a noticeable improvement in quality and inventiveness when he comes in: Captain America, Doctor Strange, Incredible Hulk, Green Lantern. But with the one-time examples, I'd say Mike Baron and Jackson Guice with Wally West. Their Wally is quite a departure from what he was before. It's been a while since I read it, and I think I recall him being a jerk fairly often, but he was a more textured character than what he was in New Teen Titans before that.
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Post by kirby101 on Dec 8, 2020 11:58:43 GMT -5
I looked through the posts, so if I missed this, apologies. But no one has mentioned O'Neil and Adams on Green Lantern/ Green Arrow, that was a radical turn. And Geoff Johns, also on Green Lantern, introducing the whole multi-color Lanterns. It reworked the whole mythology.
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Post by tarkintino on Dec 8, 2020 12:33:05 GMT -5
I looked through the posts, so if I missed this, apologies. But no one has mentioned O'Neil and Adams on Green Lantern/ Green Arrow, that was a radical turn. Yes, one of comics' most important and creatively to-the-moon turns on a long-running title.
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Post by beccabear67 on Dec 8, 2020 13:12:56 GMT -5
Mark Waid seems to have brought new life to the few comics he was involved with I've read. Maybe not trans formative perhaps but more than just keeping a title going.
I guess Don Rosa on the Disney Ducks is worth a mention. There were a lot of very average and forgettable Duck comics between Carl Barks and he.
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Post by berkley on Dec 8, 2020 15:42:20 GMT -5
Mark Waid seems to have brought new life to the few comics he was involved with I've read. Maybe not trans formative perhaps but more than just keeping a title going.
I haven't read much but I have a bad impression of his stuff from how he wrote Orion in the JLA. I know it's unfair to judge a writer's work as a whole from such a small, isolated example, and it hasn't decided me against reading anything by Waid, ever, but his name in the credits is not a draw for me. there are a few other things too that I've heard about but haven't read - I thnk he was one of the guys beind the new, wise-cracking, woman-chasing Dr. Strange? But I might still try one of his independent books if I ever hear of one that sounds interesting.
But there are several contemporary writers that have killed my interest in their other work by lack-lustre writing for the Big 2, especially the New Gods or the Eternals, since I rate those two concepts so highly and they've been written so badly by so many. Neil Gaiman, for example, though I still plan to read Sandman one of these days. Not to mention a lot of lesser names that I think are just plain bad, like Jason Aaron.
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Post by profh0011 on Dec 8, 2020 16:35:57 GMT -5
Mark Waid seems to have brought new life to the few comics he was involved with I've read. Maybe not trans formative perhaps but more than just keeping a title going. I mostly remember Mark Waid as the guy who was directly involved in no less than 3 SEPARATE, all un-called for, reboots of the entire history of the LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES.
The 1st time, somehow, he got his sorry self FIRED off the book over.
The 2nd time-- "Zero Hour"-- 75% of the long-time membership of KLORDNY quit the group over and never read the comics again.
The 3rd time-- the one he did with Barry Kitson-- FOR NO APPARENT REASON whatsoever-- 4 months in, I finally threw my hands up and decided... "I've had enough." And I have NOT read a new Legion comic since then. That was now over 15 years ago.
Ian Fleming had a character once comment on this kind of behavior. "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is ENEMY ACTION."
And yet... Waid is still nowhere as TOXIC and arrogant as Kurt Busiek. (Or Kevin Dooley.)
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Post by berkley on Dec 8, 2020 18:17:07 GMT -5
I haven't read many Kurt Busiek comics but from what I saw of him on the old CBR boards I didn't have a problem with the way he behaved there. But I tend to think fan/creator interactions aren't necessarily a good thing, much of the time. It's very easy for them to veer towards one of two unhealthy extremes: abject sycophancy or over-emotional antagonism. They don't have to go that way, but the potential is always there.
So if I saw Neil Gaiman here on the old Classics Board (I understand this would never happen, just using it as an example), I don't think I would ask him about that Eternals series I dislike so much, though I admit I'd be tempted if he seemed willing and interested in such a discussion (which I have no reason to think would be the case). That wouldn't stop me from talking about my views of the series, but I don't think I would try to involve the creator in a conversation.
Maybe I should have used Mark Waid as my example, because i just remembered another story of his that's left me with a bad impression just from hearing about it, not having actually read it: the one where the Elongated Man disguises himself as a dress that Barda is wearing: how anyone ever thought that was a whimsically comical scenario rather than creepy and offensive is beyond me, and that's not modern-day hindsight talking or virtue-signalling: I had the same immediate reaction when I first heard about the story years ago.
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Post by spoon on Dec 8, 2020 20:08:55 GMT -5
Mark Waid seems to have brought new life to the few comics he was involved with I've read. Maybe not trans formative perhaps but more than just keeping a title going. I mostly remember Mark Waid as the guy who was directly involved in no less than 3 SEPARATE, all un-called for, reboots of the entire history of the LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES.
The 1st time, somehow, he got his sorry self FIRED off the book over.
The 2nd time-- "Zero Hour"-- 75% of the long-time membership of KLORDNY quit the group over and never read the comics again.
The 3rd time-- the one he did with Barry Kitson-- FOR NO APPARENT REASON whatsoever-- 4 months in, I finally threw my hands up and decided... "I've had enough." And I have NOT read a new Legion comic since then. That was now over 15 years ago.
Yes, I thought Abnett and Lanning had a good thing going. I barely read any Legion growing up, and their run got me into the book. It was frustrating to a reboot destroy all that instead of just working with what DnA had done. And Waid's take was seemingly just that everyone on the team is brat instead of a three-dimensional character.
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Post by Cei-U! on Dec 8, 2020 21:27:06 GMT -5
Maybe I should have used Mark Waid as my example, because i just remembered another story of his that's left me with a bad impression just from hearing about it, not having actually read it: the one where the Elongated Man disguises himself as a dress that Barda is wearing: how anyone ever thought that was a whimsically comical scenario rather than creepy and offensive is beyond me, and that's not modern-day hindsight talking or virtue-signalling: I had the same immediate reaction when I first heard about the story years ago. It was Plastic Man, not Elongated Man, and the scene appeared in a Morrison script, not one of Waid's. But yes, it was a terrible idea that treated sexual assault was as a joke.
Cei-U! I summon the poor taste!
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Post by beccabear67 on Dec 8, 2020 21:37:18 GMT -5
I haven't read much by Waid so perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned him, I did come to like like the Legion where they have vintage comics as inspiration (I come in with #16 and then started filling in backwards), though I may've liked the too short Shooter return as much or more. Waid's his scripting on The Comet seems very good, and I really liked two single page Super Turtles! The name Kurt Busiek would be more of a definite selling point, but I would be curious if I saw Mark Waid listed.
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Post by berkley on Dec 8, 2020 22:06:35 GMT -5
Maybe I should have used Mark Waid as my example, because i just remembered another story of his that's left me with a bad impression just from hearing about it, not having actually read it: the one where the Elongated Man disguises himself as a dress that Barda is wearing: how anyone ever thought that was a whimsically comical scenario rather than creepy and offensive is beyond me, and that's not modern-day hindsight talking or virtue-signalling: I had the same immediate reaction when I first heard about the story years ago. It was Plastic Man, not Elongated Man, and the scene appeared in a Morrison script, not one of Waid's. But yes, it was a terrible idea that treated sexual assault was as a joke.
Cei-U! I summon the poor taste!
Thanks for the correction. I get Morrison's and Waid's JLA mixed up for some reason - I think they were around the same time? - and have in the past blamed Morrison for some of Waid's stories. It's probably because I was reading them after the fact and for the same reason: to see how the New Gods characters were handled in the series.
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Post by profh0011 on Dec 8, 2020 22:24:19 GMT -5
Yes, I thought Abnett and Lanning had a good thing going. I barely read any Legion growing up, and their run got me into the book. It was frustrating to a reboot destroy all that instead of just working with what DnA had done. And Waid's take was seemingly just that everyone on the team is brat instead of a three-dimensional character. It seemed the me the book was getting better and better as it went. And then, suddenly... POOF!
Yes, Abnett & Lanning were a real shock to me. They seemed to have a real grasp of both science-fiction, AND characterization. The previous reboot had started out nice, then somehow gotten derailed, then inexplicably reached a point where I could not follow the stories from one PANEL to another. WTF? It's no wonder the editor decided to fire EVERYBODY... though I really wish Jeff Moy had stayed. He did ONE issue with the new writers, and I thought it was his best work ever.
The new direction seemed almost violently "different"... but then, after about a year, things settled down, and from that point, it just got better and better as it went. And then if got EVEN better! Until..!!!
You have to wonder what kind of drugs some people in charge on on when they make some decisions...
This all sticks in my head because, and this still flips me out, the LEGION was the one series I bought NEW as they were coming out, longer than any other comic series in my life. It took me 10 years after I first ran across the LSH before I started buying it new (around 1978) but by the time I stopped, I'd been following it longer than anything from any publisher.
My best friend still follows it, but I just have no interest at all. I can always re-read from the beginning (in the late 50s).
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