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Post by berkley on Jul 17, 2023 19:18:46 GMT -5
Maybe I need to give it another read through then because I found Orion to be a really bland lead character when compared to Scott in Mister Miracle I like the DR Jeckle Mr. Hyde aspect to Orion. He was seemingly controlling the monster at all times. Yea, for me Orion is one of the most compelling characters in comics. I think the concept is bit wasted on the bulk of comics fans, who are used to characters like Wolverine and Lobo or even Batman: mean, tough guys who are continually trying to show how mean and tough they are; who want to be scary (in Batman's case, originally only as a tactic in his fight against crime but exaggerated and over-emphasised by later writers until it became an end in itself).
Orion, in contrast, is a scary character who is doing everything he can not to scare people. But comics writers as a group are so limited in their views, so used to interpreting everything in terms of the superhero comics they know and love, all they can see is a Lobo or Wolverine wannabe, so that's how they write him (see, for example, Mark Waid;s JLA, but really just about every appearance not written by Kirby).
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Post by Batflunkie on Jul 17, 2023 19:28:23 GMT -5
The Cartoonist Kayfabe guys were fairly critical of both the plotting and the scripting in the Silver Surfer graphic novel. I quite enjoyed it, but I can see where they were coming from. Don't know what that is but in general I'm not too impressed with comics critics. And even the most perceptive critics in other media I find of interest mainly for pointing out aspects of a work I might have missed on my own, not for telling me what's good and what's bad. Or perhaps that's not quite it: it might be more fair to say that I've come across critical analyses that have persuaded me look at something twice, perhaps think again about something I've dismissed or didn't think much of the first time around. But I don't believe I've ever come across a negative judgement that has changed my mind about something I already liked.
Here's the video Commond was talking about Berkley Cartoonist Kayfabe might not be for everybody, but I do enjoy it for it's insights into the business as it's done by Ed Piskor and Jim Rugg (with Tom Scioli guest starring in this episode)
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 17, 2023 21:29:39 GMT -5
With mister Miracle, I thought Kirby hit the ground running and created an interesting and dynamic character and a terrific world, which fueled a great read. New Gods, I kind of felt Kirby was kind of working out his mythology on paper and it took time to come together, By issue 6, he is cooking with gas and 6-11 are fantastic stories and just a pure epic. Jimmy Olsen was the one that surprised me, when I first started reading it, after finding all of the back issues, in one spot. It starts really, really well, and just hits you with concept after concept and character after character, and these wild visuals. And, then, you get the redrawn Superman and Jimmy.
Forever People was the one where I don't think it really came together, until the Glorious Godfrey issue, but that was the only part that really stood out to me, aside from maybe Desaad's theme park thing I think Kirby had trouble translating the youth that he saw into a coherent story. I just think it was more of a generational thing.
OMAC and Demon were great, in my eyes. Demon with the Arthurian stuff and supernatural that felt dark and ominous, not just aping whatever was in theaters or EC-Lite. OMAC was just wild action and satire, and these bizarre concepts that just made you scratch your head, until you are old enough to understand Kirby's comment on some aspect of society.
The Losers was the closest thing to Jack's war memoirs.
I said it in my review threads and Mark Evanier said it before me; many of the things that Kirby is doing in his work do not always come together in the reader's mind, until later. Sometimes you needed some distance and experience to understand Jack's perspective on things. The 4th World was like that. I missed the original issues; but, found the Baxter reprints in college, within a couple of years of publication (plus the Hunger Dogs GN) I picked it up because of the visuals, but still had mixed feelings about the stories, other than "The Pact," which I though was epic storytelling, at its finest. I have loved reading mythology since I first saw an article about Achilles, in our World Book Encyclopedia set, as a kid. I started hunting down other stories in the volumes, from various cultures. "The Pact" was like a Norse saga crossed with The Iliad and the Odyssey. It took a bit longer to really get into everything Kirby was doing; by the time I was ending my military service, I started seeing what he was doing. Mister Miracle was obvious from the start, as was Jimmy Olsen; but, New Gods was a bit broader and more abstract. OMAC was always these weird visuals, ever since I first saw a cover in a DC house add (Issue #2, but also Issue #1, with the whole "build-a-friend," with what looked like a woman embedded in a box. It was creepy, and weird, but mesmerizing. The second issue's cover kind of sold the idea of a One Man Army Corps. It was a long time before I saw Kamandi.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jul 17, 2023 21:41:53 GMT -5
Streetwise. Cei-U! Nuff said! This is actually the correct answer.
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Post by commond on Jul 18, 2023 7:37:36 GMT -5
Don't know what that is but in general I'm not too impressed with comics critics. And even the most perceptive critics in other media I find of interest mainly for pointing out aspects of a work I might have missed on my own, not for telling me what's good and what's bad. Or perhaps that's not quite it: it might be more fair to say that I've come across critical analyses that have persuaded me look at something twice, perhaps think again about something I've dismissed or didn't think much of the first time around. But I don't believe I've ever come across a negative judgement that has changed my mind about something I already liked.
Here's the video Commond was talking about Berkley Cartoonist Kayfabe might not be for everybody, but I do enjoy it for it's insights into the business as it's done by Ed Piskor and Jim Rugg (with Tom Scioli guest starring in this episode)
I don't think the Cartoonist Kayfabe guys are wrong in their criticisms of the structural flaws of the story, but I don't think there were a ton of people who understood the potential of the graphic novel in 1978.
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Post by MDG on Jul 18, 2023 9:42:34 GMT -5
Streetwise. Cei-U! Nuff said! This is actually the correct answer. I like Streetwise a lot, but dislike the critical tendency--especially in comics--to focus on things that are totally different than most of a creator's work, if not comics in general. It reinforces the idea that most of comics are crap (even if that is true).
Especially in Kirby's case, there is a singular vision and recurring themes in his work over time, with or without collaborators, regardless of publisher or how integrated it has to be with a "universe."
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Post by Duragizer on Jul 31, 2023 22:26:19 GMT -5
Guess who's never read a Kamandi in her life? I'd recommend against making Kamandi: At Earth's End one's first excursion into that setting. Speaking from experience.
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 1, 2023 6:27:30 GMT -5
Guess who's never read a Kamandi in her life? I'd recommend against making Kamandi: At Earth's End one's first excursion into that setting. Speaking from experience. On the other hand, I have about 6 issues of the Kamandi Challenge and it was quite good.
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Post by kirby101 on Aug 1, 2023 7:33:56 GMT -5
I liked the Kamandi challenge, most of the teams stood up to the challenge. Though reading the original series first would held. The series in Wednesday Comics by Dave Gibboons writing and Ryan Sook art was excellent.
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Post by MWGallaher on Aug 1, 2023 7:44:48 GMT -5
NEW GODS #5 is one of my favorites, all around. This sequence in particular: I think most of us are jaded by decades of "grimmer and grittier", but for 1971, this was shockingly brutal stuff to see the hero of a comic laughing cruelly after "murdering" the one thing that loved his enemy. For those who wished Stan Lee could have scripted New Gods, just imagine how he'd have tamed this dialog to paint Orion in a more heroic light. Later in the issue, Orion finishes off Slig himself, with no compunctions--this is, after all, a war--but this joy in killing the Mother Box packs even more impact.
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Post by Hoosier X on Aug 2, 2023 12:28:28 GMT -5
Guess who's never read a Kamandi in her life? I'd recommend against making Kamandi: At Earth's End one's first excursion into that setting. Speaking from experience. It’s terrible. It completely missed the point of the source material and sucked in just about every way possible. I thought about burning it but I don’t think I ever actually did it.
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 2, 2023 12:51:55 GMT -5
I'd recommend against making Kamandi: At Earth's End one's first excursion into that setting. Speaking from experience. It’s terrible. It completely missed the point of the source material and sucked in just about every way possible. I thought about burning it but I don’t think I ever actually did it. Bet you miss those Youngblood comics now…
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Post by Hoosier X on Aug 2, 2023 12:56:05 GMT -5
It’s terrible. It completely missed the point of the source material and sucked in just about every way possible. I thought about burning it but I don’t think I ever actually did it. Bet you miss those Youngblood comics now… What’s Youngblood?
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Post by thwhtguardian on Sept 25, 2023 5:48:13 GMT -5
I don't know about "best" comic Kirby ever did but I really enjoyed the recent reprinting of one of his early stories, "Starr Warriors: The Adventures of Adam Starr" It's simplistic but really fun in a pulp sci-fi way.
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 25, 2023 6:30:31 GMT -5
This is one of my favorites.
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