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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2023 14:35:02 GMT -5
Guess who's never read a Kamandi in her life?
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Post by kirby101 on Jul 14, 2023 16:03:05 GMT -5
Guess who's never read a Kamandi in her life? Dame Judy Dench?
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 14, 2023 20:18:07 GMT -5
Guess who's never read a Kamandi in her life? Dame Judy Dench? I think she referenced it in Shakespeare In Love. Something about "Why can't Shakespeare write something like that Last Boy on Earth thing...?" I didn't watch the whole movie, so I might have misheard.
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Post by kirby101 on Jul 15, 2023 4:13:34 GMT -5
Has anybody else noticed the 70s Silver Surfer GN reads an awful lot like all the other books Kirby was writing and not like Stan Lee? Even though it is suppose to be by Lee and Kirby?
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Post by MWGallaher on Jul 15, 2023 14:03:41 GMT -5
Kirby was clearly doing the heavy lifting on the SS GN; he leaves Lee only 9 panels to relate, through dialog only, the Lee-Buscema version of the Surfer's origin, during a confrontation with a woman who reminds him of Shalla-Bal on Zenn-La. Kirby reportedly objected to that explanation of the Surfer, and he apparently wasn't about to draw his own version of it for this project. There are several other references in the dialog, so Lee was certainly in command of the final scripting, but you're spot on with that observation. Excepting Kirby's eccentric choice of which words to accent in bold and his curious over-use of quotation marks, the scripting, especially the supporting characters' dialog, reads just like Kirby's Fourth World work. Thanks for the excuse to revisit this work, though. It reacquainted me with one of my favorite Kirby pages: The long format of the graphic novel allowed Kirby to extend this sequence beyond the usual restrained conventions, to tremendous effect, as we see the Surfer fall, panel by panel, with Stan's dialog (again, very Kirbyesque) restrained to short, poetic, emphatic, rhythmic statements characterizing his downfall. Powerful stuff!
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Post by MDG on Jul 16, 2023 9:58:46 GMT -5
I bought that issue years ago and gave it away. I don't remember much writing, just a lot of fighting. Kirby was a storyteller; a lot of the writing is in the art. He didn't need a lot of narration and dialogue to get the point across. There is plenty of dialogue, it's just clipped because of the intensity of the situation. Which is why discussions about who "wrote" a comic story has to look at more than the words, especially when a story is drawn without a full script
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 16, 2023 19:13:13 GMT -5
And my thanks again to Icctrombone for allowing me to read that book! I owe you one, buddy!
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 16, 2023 19:46:19 GMT -5
And my thanks again to Icctrombone for allowing me to read that book! I owe you one, buddy! Not at all, it makes it one less comic to burn when I die.
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Post by commond on Jul 17, 2023 5:26:22 GMT -5
I'm reading the Silver Surfer graphic novel as I type this, and I'm not trying to sound argumentative, but I see no evidence so far that anyone other than Stan wrote the captions and dialogue. He goes to great pains in the foreword to explain how he wrote the Surfer's dialogue differently from the usual Marvel character and explains the Marvel Method for the umpteenth time, which could be him covering his bases, but it reads like Stan to me. Jack clearly plotted it out on the page and Stan edited it. Stan admits that much in the foreword. Without upsetting anyone, Stan's dialogue generally flows better than Jack's, and the impression I get is that Stan is scripting it perhaps with input from Jack. None of this should take away from the fact that it's pretty darn good.
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Post by kirby101 on Jul 17, 2023 9:00:19 GMT -5
I agree that Stan did the final scripting, but I think there was a lot of input from Kirby, probably dialog penciled in, which he did at times in the Silver Age, then Stan re-wrote it.
I was making the observation that it reads more like a Kirby book than a Lee book (and trying to be too cute saying it) But it also points out that maybe Kirby wasn't a "terrible" scripter compared to Lee as often claimed. Stan was a better scripter, no question, but I tire of hearing that Kirby couldn't write dialog.
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Post by berkley on Jul 17, 2023 10:05:02 GMT -5
I agree that Stan did the final scripting, but I think there was a lot of input from Kirby, probably dialog penciled in, which he did at times in the Silver Age, then Stan re-wrote it. I was making the observation that it reads more like a Kirby book than a Lee book (and trying to be too cute saying it) But it also points out that maybe Kirby wasn't a "terrible" scripter compared to Lee as often claimed. Stan was a better scripter, no question, but I tire of hearing that Kirby couldn't write dialog.
I think Kirby was a better scripter than Stan in certain cases - for example when he was writing dialogue or captions that had to do with the underlying themes of his most ambitious work, the New Gods and the Eternals. In a Kirby/Lee collaboration, Stan might have rewritten such lines to sound more flowing to some ears (though not always to mine) but he would probably have missed or muddled the point at least some of the time. For this reason, I wouldn't have had Kirby hire a scripter on any of his solo books.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 17, 2023 10:19:31 GMT -5
While I suspect we are steadily drifting away from the intended focus of this thread, I'll just add what I feel is often missing in the debate about who contributed more and whose work was higher quality: Stan was scripting the entire Marvel line, as well as carrying a myriad of other highly demanding responsibilities at the same time. When Jack drew a book, he could afford to give it his full attention, energy, and passion, while Stan necessarily had to function like an efficient machine. This is not to say that Kirby had all the time in the world to draw, but he certainly had more time to focus on an individual story than Stan did. Give Stan credit for what he did -- scripted an entire line of books nonstop while overseeing the line, managing talent, and being the hype box for the fandom all at once. Kirby was a visionary; Stan was a beautiful machine in perpetual motion. Both were geniuses in their own way, and I don't think it's an insult to Stan to acknowledge that Kirby probably had more to do with most individual stories' successes than Stan did.
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Post by kirby101 on Jul 17, 2023 11:02:03 GMT -5
I think you hit it shaxper. Stan was a great editor and a good business exec for Marvel. He also gave Marvel it's voice through his dialog, and certainly, his snappy dialog for heroes like Spider-Man and Daredevil, and his soap opera romances through out the line made Marvel special for a lot of readers. I think the main bone of contention is his reputation for creating all the characters and then handing the ideas to artists, and that he came up with all the stories and initial plots. Stan's greatest creation was the myth of Stan Lee. And I'll leave it that. On to say that Captain Victory was better than a lot of people say, especially the first story arc, which is a rather brutal look at war. I believe these issues were done earlier than the rest of the series. And they had more wonderful two page splashes.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Jul 17, 2023 11:32:15 GMT -5
(...) On to say that Captain Victory was better than a lot of people say, especially the first story arc, which is a rather brutal look at war. I'm on record here as saying that I'm quite fond of the first six-issue story arc in Captain Victory - in fact, I think it's better than most of the stuff Kirby did during his second tenure at Marvel in the 1970s. (And I'd love to see it adapted as an over-the-top, MCU-style movie.)
Never thought of that before, but it seems plausible. I found everything after that first arc completely uninteresting and forgettable.
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Post by kirby101 on Jul 17, 2023 11:51:49 GMT -5
I found this on the kirbymuseum site.
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