|
Post by majestic on Mar 29, 2022 7:18:48 GMT -5
No to Gaiman. Yes for Kirby.
|
|
|
Post by foxley on Mar 29, 2022 7:23:14 GMT -5
Gaiman, yes. I love his work. He showed that comics can be literature.
Kirby, no. I do not understand this slavish devotion his name provokes in people. His writing is terrible, and his art is, at best, okay.
Okay. Let the deluge of responses telling me I'm wrong commence.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2022 7:27:26 GMT -5
Gaiman, yes. I love his work. He showed that comics can be literature. Kirby, no. I do not understand this slavish devotion his name provokes in people. His writing is terrible, and his art is, at best, okay. Okay. Let the deluge of responses telling me I'm wrong commence. It’s more nuanced than that, and I think you raise a valid point, even though I do consider him a great. I do feel anything he does have that grandeur, that epic nature about it. I’m sure if he had drawn a picture of a man buying crisps in a corner shop, there’d have been something grand about it. I do feel that, at times (more than I would have liked), shoulders and facial features were a bit too big on certain characters, as if say a character had used sandpaper on their chin or carved granite on their shoulders. I believe I have read something about the “Neanderthal” look in some characters, and I feel that’s a valid criticism. But taken as a whole, so 20+ pages of any comic he did, it’s hard for me to be anything other than appreciative. I find an escapist element to any of his pages.
|
|
|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 29, 2022 7:29:40 GMT -5
Gaiman: Yes. My favorite comic book writer ever. And an easy top ten writer of all time in all categories. Sandman is the best comic book thus far.
Kirby: No. I appreciate a lot of his work but I also find a lot of it unreadable. No doubt he was a giant, but 90% of what he did after he left Marvel the second time is dreck.
|
|
|
Post by EdoBosnar on Mar 29, 2022 8:22:41 GMT -5
For Gaiman, I'll say no just because I haven't read enough of his comics work - mainly Miracleman, Marvel 1602 and a few miscellaneous one-off stories (all of which I liked). Maybe if and when I get around to reading Sandman, he'll move up in my personal rankings.
For Kirby - no, not at all. As just an artist, he doesn't even crack my top 50. And all of my personal favorite stuff of his that I do occasionally like to go back and re-read was done in collaboration with others (like Joe Simon and Stan Lee), so mainly material from before 1970 (the only exception to that would be the first six issues of Captain Victory).
|
|
|
Post by MDG on Mar 29, 2022 8:27:03 GMT -5
Gaiman: No
Kirby: Yes
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,709
|
Post by shaxper on Mar 29, 2022 8:37:56 GMT -5
Gaiman did two things in comics that I absolutely adore -- Sandman and Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader? But that isn't enough output to make my Top 10. He probably would make my top ten if he had a larger and more diverse body of work within comics. He is an outstanding novelist who will likely be read for centuries, though. So that's a "no". While I respect what Kirby did for comic art, I don't particularly love his visual work. And his writing is...inconsistent. But his ideas! Oh, my stars and garters, what his imagination did for both the Marvel and DC Universes, and the stories he told -- absolutely. Kirby is probably in my Top Three. Kirby, no. I do not understand this slavish devotion his name provokes in people. His writing is terrible, and his art is, at best, okay. Okay. Let the deluge of responses telling me I'm wrong commence. You're not wrong at all. I agree with you, and yet Kirby is an absolute legend in my book, not because of the writing, and not because of the art. So we agree AND we disagree
|
|
|
Post by foxley on Mar 29, 2022 8:46:14 GMT -5
You're not wrong at all. I agree with you, and yet Kirby is an absolute legend in my book, not because of the writing, and not because of the art. So we agree AND we disagree So you don't like his writing or his art, so he is in your Top 10 because...? His name?
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,709
|
Post by shaxper on Mar 29, 2022 8:49:48 GMT -5
You're not wrong at all. I agree with you, and yet Kirby is an absolute legend in my book, not because of the writing, and not because of the art. So we agree AND we disagree So you don't like his writing or his art, so he is in your Top 10 because...? His name? I think I explained it above. While I respect what Kirby did for comic art, I don't particularly love his visual work. And his writing is...inconsistent. But his ideas! Oh, my stars and garters, what his imagination did for both the Marvel and DC Universes, and the stories he told -- absolutely. Kirby is probably in my Top Three. He took the Marvel Universe to the stars. He gave us Fourthworld and Kamandi. Even his later stuff is wild. Silverstar (for example) is not a good comic, but some of the ideas within are unforgettable.
|
|
|
Post by majestic on Mar 29, 2022 8:56:40 GMT -5
Shaxper absolutely agree with you about Kirby. His overall contributions to comics is miles above any other creator IMO. His ideas are still going strong decades later.
|
|
|
Post by berkley on Mar 29, 2022 9:01:44 GMT -5
Gaiman, No, based on what I've read, but I'm open to the possibility that that could change if I ever get around to reading Sandman.
Kirby, Yes, and probably near the top, for both writing and art. His best work never gets old for me.
|
|
|
Post by berkley on Mar 29, 2022 9:05:44 GMT -5
Gaiman, yes. I love his work. He showed that comics can be literature. Kirby, no. I do not understand this slavish devotion his name provokes in people. His writing is terrible, and his art is, at best, okay. Okay. Let the deluge of responses telling me I'm wrong commence.
I wouldn't tell you that you're wrong: your tastes and opinions are your own. But I would object to the word "slavish", which is you telling everyone who happens to disagree with you on the subject not only that they're wrong but that they don't even have minds of their own.
|
|
|
Post by badwolf on Mar 29, 2022 9:26:16 GMT -5
Sandman is still a masterpiece, but there isn't much else to go on. I rate Gaiman highly as a writer, but I'm not sure there's enough comics work to put him in my top 10 for that.
Kirby is awkward. I mean he literally created much of the foundation of the universe I love, so I kind of feel he should be there... but the truth is, I never liked his artwork. So on a personal level, I'm going to have to say no. (I'll say the same thing for Ditko if his name comes up.)
|
|
|
Post by Bronze age andy on Mar 29, 2022 9:33:26 GMT -5
Gaiman? No. I've only read Sandman so I guess I don't really have enough to go on to rank him but I will say I've never wanted to read it again.
Kirby? Yes. I never get tired of looking at his stuff. There's always something of his I can peruse and get a thrill out of. The King for a reason.
|
|
|
Post by foxley on Mar 29, 2022 9:35:22 GMT -5
Gaiman, yes. I love his work. He showed that comics can be literature. Kirby, no. I do not understand this slavish devotion his name provokes in people. His writing is terrible, and his art is, at best, okay. Okay. Let the deluge of responses telling me I'm wrong commence.
I wouldn't tell you that you're wrong: your tastes and opinions are your own. But I would object to the word "slavish", which is you telling everyone who happens to disagree with you on the subject not only that they're wrong but that they don't even have minds of their own.
I appreciate you not telling me I am wrong, and I apologise if the word 'slavish' caused any offense.
However, in other forums I have been essentially been told that I cannot truly be a comics fan if I do not like Kirby. Or even that I actually do like Kirby and I was just being contrarian to get attention, because it is apparently impossible for anyone to dislike Kirby. And I have been repeatedly been told that everything he produced was a masterpiece, even if it was Captain Victory, or that Sandman story where seal men kidnap Santa Claus to punish him for giving them mittens year after year, because Santa is apparently too stupid to realise that seal men have flippers.
So, from my own experience, there seems to be a cult of personality around Kirby that brooks no criticism of him. But I do acknowledge that the majority of you must like his work for its merits (whatever they are), so I again apologise for tarring you with the same brush of the rabid Kirby-philes.
|
|