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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 23, 2022 9:50:53 GMT -5
Let me say that I did read it all the way through at the time and at that time my biggest issue with it was the loss of Earth-2. Its counterpart, Secret Wars, was so incredibly dire that quit it about half way through. Since I was in a completionist phase at the time that shows you how I felt about that abomination.
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Post by tarkintino on Mar 23, 2022 10:18:55 GMT -5
Age: 51 The art, as I think we all agree, was spectacular. I was already a fan of George from JLA and Avengers, and this was him in his prime. The story, I think, is mostly great. Sure, there are a few awkward bits, and maybe not everything 100% makes sense, but considered the job Marv was hired to do, I think it is quite amazing. I imagine it was no more awkward than the torrential flood of incoherent stories even readers were rejecting from the Silver Age. Any course corrections for DC (late 60s-forward Batman, early 70s Green Lantern, the Deadman, the Spectre, etc.) were giving readers what they wanted, and that was the opposite of the asinine, continuity-deprived, if-it-sticks-to-the-wall-its-a-keeper writing in too many titles of the Silver Age. DC was not going to survive still printing the kind of nonsense people like Weisinger once championed, certainly not into the 1980s. Yes, and as mentioned earlier, its one of the greatest, most necessary concepts DC ever published, and the one and only near-perfect correction of a comic-book universe (actually giving it structural integrity that had never been there before). I was one of the readers of the earlier eras, but I always recognized how terrible and creatively challenged some titles were, with next to none making any sense in the broader, united universe. Same here. There were not many times where Silver Age Superman or Action were compelling titles to follow, and the muck from the Weisinger influence was not to be tolerated. COIE Superman had a purpose, real heart and was no longer the paternalistic "daddy" figure he had been for far too long.
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Post by tartanphantom on Mar 23, 2022 10:37:40 GMT -5
tartanphantom - aw see, now I thought you were coming over to the "dark side" and becoming a fellow rocker: Of course, that's the original intent, but the actual results probably look more like Gabby.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2022 10:40:04 GMT -5
Let me say that I did read it all the way through at the time and at that time my biggest issue with it was the loss of Earth-2. Its counterpart, Secret Wars, was so incredibly dire that quit it about half way through. Since I was in a completionist phase at the time that shows you how I felt about that abomination. I was so excited about Secret Wars as a kid, all the build-up of Spidey's black suit and supposedly this epic story to tell. And that Mike Zeck cover on the first issue was just killer. Contest of Champions was just the appetizer, this was going to be the main event I thought. And I kind of hung in there for the early part. Kang got zapped early, hated that part, I was expecting him to have more of a role. But yeah, by mid-way through I was struggling. Plus, the Hulk can't hold up a mountain. Even if regular physics somehow don't work on Battleworld, just...no. In hindsight, yeah, it was much more toy advertisement than what Crisis aspired to be. 12 issues was too much, I think the 5 issue format of the original Super Powers series worked better (and similar in the subsequent runs of that title).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2022 11:02:19 GMT -5
So we're 22 votes in at this point, and there's no real age trend emerging (which may have been obvious to others, but again sort of shifted my assumptions a little). 10 votes "good", 12 votes "bad", and a couple of write-ins that were not squarely in either.
The bigger trend, which makes sense, is where folks were coming from pre-Crisis. Those who did not have as much attachment to older DC, whether a dislike for the earlier material or just not as much exposure, seem more receptive to what Crisis enabled for DC going forward. Those of us with stronger attachment (and loved those JLA/JSA team-ups) are very much in the opposite camp.
Also discussion on the merits of the actual maxi-series (legacy wording here), and much love for the magnificent Mr. Perez of course. Much more mixed on the story itself, ongoing implications aside.
I think also very key in the discussion here...conjecture on how the Crisis concept could have still happened, but been more effective. A number of folks mentioned a true reset to continuity. I fully agree...the ambiguity in the titles for awhile was really confusing, and "retro-fitting" things along the way got weird in a number of cases.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Mar 23, 2022 11:21:35 GMT -5
I'm age 56 and I voted bad. I actually loved the series, and had no inherent objection to the post-Crisis merged Earth.
However, I was not impressed with what DC has done with its post-Crisis merged Earth … and now that the multiverse is back it all turns out to have been for nothing.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 23, 2022 11:38:10 GMT -5
What, and you don't want those sweet discounts? I can't wait to get my "Golden Buckeye" discount card (yes, that's a real thing here)...cheap bus fare, coffee, etc. I tell that to my wife all the time, and she just shakes her head. Although, she shakes her head at a lot of things I say...
Since I grew my beard and moustache out and buzz-cut my hair, and it's all going silver, I get most of the discounts without asking. Looking more and more like Gabby Hayes by the day...
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Post by Duragizer on Mar 23, 2022 14:44:54 GMT -5
I'm 34 years old. If this was 2007, when I first read COIE, I'd have voted good. I was gobsmacked by Perez's art. Also, without it, the triangle era Superman never would've existed. But now I vote bad.
If a consolidated, streamlined DC Universe was the goal, it could've been met with the introduction of a brand new Earth co-existent with Earth-1, Earth-2, et al.; Wolfman's literal "scorched Earth" approach to the DC Multiverse and nearly fifty years of storytelling was wholly unnecessary. And do I really need to get into the precedence it set for events/reboots further down the line?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2022 14:54:07 GMT -5
And do I really need to get into the precedence it set for events/reboots further down the line? I’m concerned that 2025 - the story’s 40th anniversary - will see “Infinite This Time It Really Is The Final Crisis”.
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Post by tarkintino on Mar 23, 2022 15:16:04 GMT -5
And do I really need to get into the precedence it set for events/reboots further down the line? The value if a story is what it accomplished / effect on the readers, not what editors and writers down the line produced, which is not the responsibilty of COIE's creators. COIE met its needed goal and then some, which is what so many DC readers wanted for years. As far as events and reboots go, the Silver and Bronze Age were filled with reboots / retcons of everything from resurrecting Golden Age characters with new histories never intended by the creators, multi-title crossover events ( The Avengers & The Defenders did that in the early 70s), so COIE did not introduce much of that. But it handled it the right way, which has not been seen since, other than non-continuity books.
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Post by tonebone on Mar 23, 2022 15:18:46 GMT -5
I'm torn. I'm 53 and voted Crisis Good, but I have mixed feelings.
I was really excited about it when it happened... I bought every issue off the stands at my local Mom and Pop grocery, and marveled at the art and inclusion of so many characters. I loved the introductions of the Charlton heroes, and cried when Supergirl died. I was rivited and awaited each issue with baited breath.
HOWEVER, like others have said, I LOVED the multiple earths of DC, and it's rich history and heritage. I loved reading All Star Squadron, and loved the yearly JLA/JSA team ups. I loved the Daily Star, Huntress, the Freedom Fighters, Doll Man, and all the other quirky, legacy-rich characters of the past, tucked safely away on their own worlds. And then they were gone.
I felt like the AFTERMATH of Crisis was really the weak point, where the term Ret-Con really came into its own. I was really not comfortable with all of the shoe-horning of history and different eras into one continuity. It felt like DC was becoming a house built upon sand. THAT's the part of Crisis that I hated.
But I can't deny that, at the time, I was really swept up in it, and was happy to be along for the ride.
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Post by tonebone on Mar 23, 2022 15:23:51 GMT -5
What, and you don't want those sweet discounts? I can't wait to get my "Golden Buckeye" discount card (yes, that's a real thing here)...cheap bus fare, coffee, etc. I tell that to my wife all the time, and she just shakes her head. Although, she shakes her head at a lot of things I say...
Since I grew my beard and moustache out and buzz-cut my hair, and it's all going silver, I get most of the discounts without asking. Looking more and more like Gabby Hayes by the day...
Authentic Frontier Gibberish.
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Post by dbutler69 on Mar 23, 2022 15:25:14 GMT -5
I'm torn. I'm 53 and voted Crisis Good, but I have mixed feelings. I was really excited about it when it happened... I bought every issue off the stands at my local Mom and Pop grocery, and marveled at the art and inclusion of so many characters. I loved the introductions of the Charlton heroes, and cried when Supergirl died. I was rivited and awaited each issue with baited breath. HOWEVER, like others have said, I LOVED the multiple earths of DC, and it's rich history and heritage. I loved reading All Star Squadron, and loved the yearly JLA/JSA team ups. I loved the Daily Star, Huntress, the Freedom Fighters, Doll Man, and all the other quirky, legacy-rich characters of the past, tucked safely away on their own worlds. And then they were gone. I felt like the AFTERMATH of Crisis was really the weak point, where the term Ret-Con really came into its own. I was really not comfortable with all of the shoe-horning of history and different eras into one continuity. It felt like DC was becoming a house built upon sand. THAT's the part of Crisis that I hated. But I can't deny that, at the time, I was really swept up in it, and was happy to be along for the ride. Yeah, it's sort of two different questions here - how did you like the series by itself in a vacuum? and was the whole crisis thing a good idea or bad idea - meaning the aftermath of the series? I could see liking the series itself, but I think the aftermath was an unmitigated disaster, and as badwolf pointed out, you could have gotten a lot of the good things that came out of COIE without blowing up the Multiverse.
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Post by tonebone on Mar 23, 2022 15:27:03 GMT -5
And do I really need to get into the precedence it set for events/reboots further down the line? I’m concerned that 2025 - the story’s 40th anniversary - will see “Infinite This Time It Really Is The Final Crisis”. I would say there's no chance of them not doing that.
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Post by tonebone on Mar 23, 2022 15:33:54 GMT -5
I'm torn. I'm 53 and voted Crisis Good, but I have mixed feelings. I was really excited about it when it happened... I bought every issue off the stands at my local Mom and Pop grocery, and marveled at the art and inclusion of so many characters. I loved the introductions of the Charlton heroes, and cried when Supergirl died. I was rivited and awaited each issue with baited breath. HOWEVER, like others have said, I LOVED the multiple earths of DC, and it's rich history and heritage. I loved reading All Star Squadron, and loved the yearly JLA/JSA team ups. I loved the Daily Star, Huntress, the Freedom Fighters, Doll Man, and all the other quirky, legacy-rich characters of the past, tucked safely away on their own worlds. And then they were gone. I felt like the AFTERMATH of Crisis was really the weak point, where the term Ret-Con really came into its own. I was really not comfortable with all of the shoe-horning of history and different eras into one continuity. It felt like DC was becoming a house built upon sand. THAT's the part of Crisis that I hated. But I can't deny that, at the time, I was really swept up in it, and was happy to be along for the ride. Yeah, it's sort of two different questions here - how did you like the series by itself in a vacuum? and was the whole crisis thing a good idea or bad idea - meaning the aftermath of the series? I could see liking the series itself, but I think the aftermath was an unmitigated disaster, and as badwolf pointed out, you could have gotten a lot of the good things that came out of COIE without blowing up the Multiverse. Exactly. But that is not to say that the comics themselves, published after the Crisis were not good... it was a very fertile time for DC, and they were firing on all cylinders, with a really diverse line up of titles and genres. This sort of variety would die out, of course, in the following years. It was really just the superhero continuity that I found fault in, following the Crisis, not the actual quality of the comics.
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