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Post by driver1980 on Sept 16, 2024 7:47:54 GMT -5
I think the Amazing Spider-man is actually pretty good right up until (and even past) 200. I think they could've stopped publishing Spider-Man comics after issue #200. Those first two-hundred-and-one issues -- starting with Peter getting bitten by the radioactive spider and ending with the reappearance of the burglar who killed Uncle Ben and with Aunt May overcoming her fear of Spider-Man -- tell one of the best coming-of-age stories in American fiction. Of course, ending the story there would've robbed us of a lot of great comics, but nevertheless, I think the story told between Amazing Fantasy #15 and Amazing Spider-Man #200 is a coming-of-age tale on a par with the likes of Little Women or The Graduate. One big flaw in serial storytelling - and it’s possibly worth a topic on its own - is that we’ll never see an end to a scenario, “What if?” and alternate universes aside. For the most part, the mainstream titles will continue forever. And while most of us no doubt want that, it’s a shame we won’t get closure in the same way we may have seen at times with films and TV shows.
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rich
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Post by rich on Sept 16, 2024 8:38:25 GMT -5
That is the problem with serialised comics that run on indefinitely, and probably why limited series are more satisfying as an adult, and make for better collections. Even some semblance of an ending is great!! Editors have always been scared of 'jumping off points', though.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Sept 16, 2024 9:13:02 GMT -5
Playing catch-up again... THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN Annual 3 (reprinted in Marvel Tales 181) This Annual is a special story that addresses the inevitable question readers were likely asking. Should Spider-man be an Avenger? I wasn't asking! I didn't need to ask. And the answer is "no", anyway. Even though we're early into John Romita's tenure on the book, he only does layouts for this story, with Don Heck doing the actual pencils, inked by Mike Esposito (aka Mickey Demeo) I think Don Heck does a very serviceable job following John Romita's layouts here. Some of the panels in this annual are gorgeous (and some aren't quite so gorgeous, of course). The panel-to-panel storytelling is pure Romita though, and Esposito's inks provide a degree of continuity between recent issues of the main series and this annual, which I appreciate. I also really like how the Hulk looks under this art team. Instead they ask him about Spider-man and he references his two team-ups with the web-swinger, from ASM 16 and a recent adventure in the pages of DD's own title, issues 16-17 (drawn by John Romita as a sort-of try out before his official appointment as Ditko's replacement). I think it was very smart of Stan Lee to have been prepping a replacement before Ditko finally threw in the towel. Lee must've been able to see the writing on the wall because the situation of having Ditko plot and draw Spider-Man, without talking to Stan, was clearly untenable in the long run. And frankly, even as a big Ditko fan, I think him leave and having Romita come onboard and Stan take up co-plotting chores again was almost certainly best for the character. Lee had, by all accounts, mentally earmarked Romita as a possible replacement for Spider-Man a good few months before Ditko quit and, as you say, Daredevil #16 and #17 was his try-out. Clearly, he passed the audition. A splash page towards the middle of the story marks the first official meeting between Spider-man and the Avengers… That's a very nice splash page. …but it isn't too long before things get tense. As usual, when you get too many super-heroes in one book, they start to fight. More of Stan Lee's patented "realistic" dialogue, where all the characters suddenly start acting like squabbling 10-year-olds. The Hulk has been spotted near the Gamma Ray Research Center, which I assume is a real place… I seriously doubt that. For his initiation test, Spider-man is tasked with finding the Hulk and bringing him back to Avengers mansion. Though he manages to web up the Hulk and has him already gift-wrapped to deliver to the Avengers, Spider-man doesn't go through with it. Spidey is sympathetic to Dr. Banner's plight, and misunderstands the Avenger's reasons for wanting to capture the Hulk , so returns empty-handed. At this point in time, Spider-man is still destined to be an outsider. Peter sympathising with Banner/Hulk is a nice touch and shows us that he's a sensitive soul at heart, who has the courage to bend the rules or disobey orders by not handing a "villain" in to the authorities if his conscience demands it. Much like he did with Norman Osborn at the end of ASM #40. This is just one more reason why Spider-Man is such a special superhero. Overall, I find this third annual rather underwhelming. So much so, in fact, that I often tend to completely forget about it when thinking of the Lee/Romita era of Spider-Man comics. I think one of my biggest problems with it is that the central plot of the Avengers tasking Spidey with capturing the Hulk to qualify for membership is really stupid. I mean, surely that's gotta be about the hardest test imaginable?! As I recall, none of the other members had to do anything as difficult as that to join the Avengers. Also, the aforementioned squabbling between Spidey and the Avengers – peppered with the Wasp's inane comments – is really tiresome. Still, the art is pretty nice here, even if it's not up to the standards of the recent Romita pencilled issues. Plus, some of Stan's dialogue is really fun – especially his dialogue for Spidey: "Well, wobble my webs and call me shaky!" But yeah, overall, this is perhaps the first Spider-Man comic that isn't an essential read.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Sept 16, 2024 10:21:04 GMT -5
THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 42 (reprinted in Marvel Tales 182) That's a really uninspiring cover from John Romita. Unusually so. This story opens with Spider-man seemingly robbing a bank. There’ve been stories like this before, but it’s always an imposter in a Spider-man suit. Not this time though, that’s really Spidey fleeing the scene of the crime with a money-bag in hand. It's clever how Stan Lee and John Romita subvert the reader's expectations here. When you see that splash-page, you naturally assume that this is an imposter dressed up as Spider-Man robbing the bank, because we've seen similar things happen before at least twice is the series. But Lee's narration box makes it plain that, no, "you're not looking at someone disguised as Spidey." That really leaves you scratching your head in puzzlement. This is still early in John Romita’s run on the title, but he’s adjusted quite well, maintaining what was already great about the title, while at the same time adding his own touches. Previous issues had him working with Mike Esposito on inks, and also Don Heck’s contributions to the art on the recent Annual, but here John Romita is credited with the full art. I agree, Romita's art in this issue looks fantastic. But this is still during his "Ditko" era, in which he was deliberately trying to smooth the transition from Ditko's style to his own by utilizing a thin pen line to mimic his predecessor's inking style. To my eyes, this deliberate "Ditkofication" comes and goes: in some places this comic just looks like Romita's style, with no reference to Ditko at all, while in others it does look rather Ditko-esque. The scenes where Peter meets up with his ESU friends look very Ditko-like in places, I think… Gwen is starting to look less like Ditko-Gwen and is almost looking like Romita-Gwen. Yes, this issue presents us with a transitional Gwen, which is sort of half Ditko-influenced and half Romita's redesign. This is the first appearance of Gwen's signature Alice band in her hair too. Harry makes reference to a place called the Silver Spoon which is a local café which will become a recurring hangout for this gang of characters in upcoming issues I love the Silver Spoon, and, later, the slightly hipper Coffee Bean bar too. They both look like really fun places to hang out with Peter and his friends. It’s interesting to see the way J. Jonah Jameson embraces this new change in his son. He’s been crusading against super-heroes, Spidey in particular, since day one, and there have been other times when he’s worked with other costumed characters to try to get rid of the web-swinger, but they’ve always turned out to be crooks or crazies. With his son, of course, it’s a different story, since John has always been a hero in his father’s eyes. Jonah, being his usual self, still has no problems exploiting his son in order to further his personal grudge against Spider-man. Further evidence, as if any were needed, that J. Jonah Jameson is a total hypocrite, if nothing else! This was a pretty good story, and it’s one of the most important issues in comic-book history, at least as far as Spider-man goes. As interesting as a super-powered John Jameson might be, though, that’s not the reason this issue is such a milestone. It all comes down to that last scene. This is an iconic moment and a line that has been referenced countless times. This is one of those panels that most comic book fans have seen, even if they’ve never read this story. After long months, Peter Parker and the readers finally got to meet Mary Jane Watson in this issue. Back when this first came out, readers would have to wait a whole month to see more of her, (but if you’re looking for my next review, you just need to wait One More Day)! An iconic panel, for sure (at least in the world of Spider-Man comics). Not sure if you know this or not jtrw2024 , but Romita's model for Mary Jane Watson was the actress Ann-Margret in the film Bye Bye, Birdie. He took her colouring, the shape of her face, her red hair etc, and applied it to MJ – though he exaggerated her dimples and the cleft in her chin. This fitted in nicely with the "Go-Go Girl" look that Stan envisaged for the character… All in all, I've always found this issue a bit "nothingy". The cover is boring and Spidey's tussles with John Jameson aren't terribly exciting either. Some of the soap opera moments are quite nice and Spidey needling Jonah is always fun. But, if truth be told, it's that last panel that saves this comic. The rest of the issue is rather "meh", but seeing Peter come face-to-face with Mary Jane for the first time makes this a landmark issue.
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Post by jtrw2024 on Sept 16, 2024 11:34:46 GMT -5
Not sure if you know this or not jtrw2024 , but Romita's model for Mary Jane Watson was the actress Ann-Margret in the film Bye Bye, Birdie. He took her colouring, the shape of her face, her red hair etc, and applied it to MJ – though he exaggerated her dimples and the cleft in her chin. This fitted in nicely with the "Go-Go Girl" look that Stan envisaged for the character… All in all, I've always found this issue a bit "nothingy". The cover is boring and Spidey's tussles with John Jameson aren't terribly exciting either. Some of the soap opera moments are quite nice and Spidey needling Jonah is always fun. But, if truth be told, it's that last panel that saves this comic. The rest of the issue is rather "meh", but seeing Peter come face-to-face with Mary Jane for the first time makes this a landmark issue. Thanks, I'm not sure if I knew that about Romita's inspiration for MJ. I've read plenty of interviews with the creators over the years, so I'm sure that must have come up at one point, but it's just one of those bits of information my mind didn't bother to retain. I watch old movies all the time, but haven't seen Bye Bye, Birdie, so wouldn't have made that connection. Now that you pointed it out, I'll have to find some time to watch it, (in between all the other stuff I always intend to do, but never get around to)! I'm not too sure why they would have went with this issue to introduce MJ, but I guess they had to do it eventually. Her first appearance on panel was in ASM 25 where Spider-man fought J. Jonah Jameson, so having her full debut in an issue where he fights his son makes for good thematic symmetry (but I'm sure that's probably just a coincidence). They probably could have added this scene to the end of the Green Goblin two-parter a few issues back, and cancelled the series right then and there, but I'm glad they kept going the way they did!
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Post by tarkintino on Sept 16, 2024 15:30:24 GMT -5
THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 42 (reprinted in Marvel Tales 182) “The Birth of a Superhero!” Well, its that time again. Time to point out how the Marvel Tales reprint cover sucked all of the rich color and overall effect of a typically great John Romita cover: The intention of the reprint was not only to mine the back catalog for free profit, but to expose young readers of another generation to the history of their favorite characters (and...make a profit from that exposure). One way to push some potential readers away is to downgrade or drastically alter the original selling point--the cover. To this end, the original TASM #42 is a pretty simple punch-up scene, but the color gave it energy and weight, especially on Jameson's face, which was colored to show how flushed he was in the anger and struggle. The reprint watered that detail down so much, as if the art of coloring had been kicked down from its natural position as one of the key building blocks of visual storytelling. The vibe of Peter's personal life was such a liberating act of character-building from Lee; the supporting cast finally felt like living characters and not the tropes they had been during the Ditko era. Lee and Romita will continue to flesh out the personality ticks, conflicts and dramas to memorable heights, but this early period is a joy to read, too. Jameson is the supreme hypocrite, since his rants against Spider-Man never include all of the other costumed vigilantes on the scene of that period, who--frankly--force their will on society far more than Spider-Man had the will or capacity to do. Indeed, the formal introduction of Mary Jane--from her physical appearance to her manner of speaking--remains one of the key moments in the medium's history. Her reinvented character (from whatever she was during the Ditko period) instantly reflected the cultural shift and growing freedoms of young women, who were aware of and exercised their own freedom, not caring about or catering to the will of men. Yes, the oft-mentioned seismic change to The Amazing Spider-Man made it the representation of the young hero in comics, with no competitors to speak of (DC's Teen Titans would not take its best, more relevant journey for a couple of years). THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 43 (reprinted in Marvel Tales 183) “Rhino on the Rampage!” It's that time again: What beautiful color, with the incongruity of Rhino skin's depth and wrinkles covering that grotesque, powerful form. Note the angle of the action: the askew angle reminiscent of a camera falling over (from the shock of the battle) in same moment the image was captured. Excellent design. I do love the fact Spider-Man was pitted against this power level of villain (beginning in TASM #41), perhaps setting readers up for his attempt to capture the Hulk in annual #3 from November of '66. Spider-Man was no longer some scrawny boy, but growing in his confidence and an obvious physical evolution, making him someone who should not be underestimated. Interesting point, but the Rhino was too strong a villain to sort of get lost to time, and there wasn't another character he--with his skillset--was better suited to bedevil than the Hulk. The process of moving the top Marvel character and his world closer to reality continues at a fast pace with a more personal, down-to-earth hint about the threat of serving in Vietnam (despite Flash's demeanor), than the Captain America arc written in the pages of Tales of Suspense #61-62 (January - February, 1965), or Iron Man's own pro-government mission there, two years later in Tales of Suspense #92 - 94 (August - October, 1967).
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Post by jtrw2024 on Sept 16, 2024 15:54:57 GMT -5
Interesting point, but the Rhino was too strong a villain to sort of get lost to time, and there wasn't another character he--with his skillset--was better suited to bedevil than the Hulk. I just reread that Hulk story this morning after Ricky Jackson reminded me about Marie Severin's art on that issue. When he gets his new costume, the Rhino also gets enhanced strength after being bombarded with Gamma Rays, since you can't just take a character who got beat up by Spider-man and pit him against someone as strong as the Incredible Hulk without giving him an upgrade first! The Rhino even makes a comment that he "LET" Spider-man defeat him.
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Post by jtrw2024 on Sept 16, 2024 19:11:54 GMT -5
THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 44 (reprinted in Marvel Tales 184) “Where Crawls the Lizard!” Credits (as they appear in the comic): Story: Smilin’ Stan Lee Illustration: Jazzy John Romita Lettering: Swingin’ Sam Rosen Color: Artful Andy Yanchus Plot Synopsis: The Lizard returns! Comments: Peter Parker is dropping his Aunt May off at the train station as she gets ready to go off on a sea-shore holiday. It seems the health scare at the end of last issue wasn’t as big a deal as it seemed, since the doctor recommended this trip, and she seems okay to travel on her own. As usual it’s Peter whom she’s more worried about. It’s kind of interesting that it took this long for the Lizard to make his comeback. The Lizard was one of this series’ earliest villains, who would go on to become a popular recurring member of Spidey’s rogues’ gallery, while also appearing in cartoons, movies and other media. As chance would have it, Dr. Curt Connors is at the train station at the same time as Peter awaiting the arrival of his wife Martha and son Billy, who have come to New York to visit him. Dr. Connors made an appearance last issue, and though it wasn’t too obvious from that story, the chemicals he used when he helped devise the method by which Spider-man defeated the Rhino, were common to the formula which originally created the Lizard. He hasn't been seen for awhile, but this story doesn’t waste any time, and the Lizard is back within the first few pages. Spider-man doesn’t get to fight the Lizard right away, but he does take a moment to talk with and reassure Mrs. Connors and her son. For fans who missed the Lizard’s first appearance, or just forgot since it was so long ago, a quick recap is provided via some redrawn scenes from that earlier story. There have been a few scenes like this since John Romita came on-board where’s he’s had the chance to re-create scenes from older Ditko-drawn stories. As with every good Spider-man story, the super-hero action has to take a back-seat once in a while to catch-up with all the various cast members. A trip to the Daily Bugle includes a brief appearance by Betty Brant, and a few panels with J. Jonah Jameson and Frederick Foswell. Foswell has his suspicions about Peter and his connection to Spider-man which he plans to pursue using his disguise as Patch. The Silver Spoon café was mentioned a few issues back, and now provides the setting for this story’s obligatory appearance from the Empire State University cast of characters. Peter arrives at the café, where he meets up with Flash, Harry and Gwen, but the most significant moment is the arrival of Mary Jane. This group of characters will all play major roles in this era of Spidey stories, and here they all are on the same page together for the first time. Flash has seen MJ once before in ASM 25, but if he recognizes her, he doesn't mention it. Flash will be leaving soon for the army but will continue to pop up from time to time, playing a part in the ongoing drama of this series. Oh, yeah, on MJ’s recommendation, Peter decides to repaint his bike. The Lizard’s scheme is the same as before, to rule the world from the Florida swamps with an army of giant reptiles at his command. Before he can do that, though he knows he has to stop the one hero who stands in his way. Taking a cue from the super-villain handbook he robs a jewelry showroom located on the upper floors of a high building, with the hopes that Spider-man will take the blame. Other villains have tried this trick before, but they’re usually dressed up in a Spidey suit. Still, the Lizard’s ruse has the desired results, playing out the same as it usually does with Jameson jumping on the story. It’s nice to see Jameson take at least a moment to think things through, in case Spider-man is innocent like all the previous times this happened, but he goes ahead and does it anyway. Of course, Flash takes it upon himself to defend Spidey, and Peter is too distracted to concentrate on his school work, as is usually the case when super-hero problems are on his mind. When night falls, Spider-man tracks down the Lizard, and an epic battle is fought from the streets, to the sewers and up to the rooftops. Spidey’s automatic camera is snapping away the whole time, and witnesses on the street spot both him and the Lizard scaling a tall building, casting doubts on the earlier accusations, just like he planned. During the course of the battle, Spider-man falls, injuring his arm. A doctor on the street manages to bandage him up, but now that Spider-man has been seen with a broken arm, Peter can’t go out in public. Spidey has suffered injuries in battle before, but Peter’s always managed to come up with plausible explanations so no one suspects his true identity. Once again, the story ends on a downer, with Peter stuck at home, unable to go out in public for fear of jeopardizing his secret. He mentions leaving his camera behind after the fight, so his source of income is also threatened. On top of all that, the Lizard is still at large. The blurb on the last page, tells Spidey-fans “don’t despair”, but how can you help it after an ending like this? Notable differences in the reprint: The credits on the original splash page originally acknowledged Irving Forbush’s important contribution to this issue, however his name was omitted for the Marvel Tales reprint. There must have been some severe animosity between Forbush and Marvel in the 80s for them to go to such drastic lengths Post Office of the Past is included, but there’s only one letter, originally printed in ASM 47, commenting on the Lizard story reprinted here. Jim Owsley, Editor. Adam Blaustein, Assistant Editor For some reason they also reprinted the next issue box from ASM 47’s letters page, which makes absolutely no sense and confused the heck out of me when I read this comic as a kid Most of the letter’s page space is taken up by the View From the Tenth Floor column by Andy Yanchus. He takes the opportunity to address and apologize for his error with the colour of Peter’s bike, and goes on to explain other aspects of the re-colouring process as well as the choices he’s made throughout this run. This was something I was really interested in while reading through the earlier issues, so it’s really cool to have something like this to understand some of the decisions behind the recolouring process. The Bullpen Bulletins page from ASM 44 is also reprinted here. Personal anecdotes: This is one of the issues I picked up when I was going through back issue bins around 1988 or 89 trying to collect whatever Spider-man comics I could get my hands on. I hadn’t read the first Lizard story yet, and for some reason I seem to remember picking this one up, thinking it was his first appearance. I knew that Connors appeared earlier during the Master Planner story, and another issue which I owned had a pin-up with the Lizard, so I probably should have known that this issue wasn’t a reprint of his first appearance. “Where Crawls the Lizard” was the title of an episode of the original Spider-man cartoon, which was an adaptation of ASM 6, so that was probably where my confusion came from. Sometimes when you’re a kid in a comic shop with so many great choices in front of you, it’s hard to think straight. I guess it’s not too different when you’re an adult either.
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Post by Ricky Jackson on Sept 16, 2024 23:06:47 GMT -5
One thing I didn't care about when I was young but that absolutely grates on me reading older comics in 2024 is the hang up with the hero keeping their secret identity and how it can be such a big part of these stories. I understand it was part of the appeal of these characters, or at least it was believed by the creators that the kids buying these comics were into stuff like that, but it just comes off so silly. ASM isn't as bad as Superman or Batman having whole stories devoted to the heroes obsessively tricking people to preserve their secret identity, but the whole "Peter avoiding leaving the house because everyone will know he's Spider-Man due to also having a hurt arm" here is pretty lame imo. Everyday people also hurt their arms, not just superheroes. I know it's all about the drama and Spidey always having problems, but for me the secret identity obsession is one aspect of old superhero comics that is just so tedious
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Sept 17, 2024 1:57:57 GMT -5
THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 43 (reprinted in Marvel Tales 183) That's a great, dynamic cover…though, as tarkintino pointed out, it is somewhat let down by the '80s recolouring on the Marvel Tales reprint. Future stories would reveal that Mary Jane knew Peter’s secret all along, and I think that fits perfectly with stories like this one. Obviously that wasn’t the original intention at the time, but I like how that particular bit of retroactive continuity contributes to Spidey’s history. I feel like we've discussed this in this thread before, but I agree. It was in the graphic novel Spider-Man: Parallel Lives from 1989 that it was shown that Mary Jane had been staying with her Aunt Anna on the night Uncle Ben was murdered and saw Spider-Man swinging away from the upstairs window of Aunt May's house. She quickly put two-and-two together and deduced that Peter Parker must be Spider-Man, though she kept it to herself. I'm not a fan of retcons, generally speaking, but I think that one makes a whole lot of sense and goes a long way towards explaining why a stunningly beautiful girl like MJ would be so keen to hang out with bookish Peter Parker right from their first meeting. As you say, it's interesting, in retrospect, how well the scene where MJ suggest she and Peter go and watch the Rhino's rampage downtown fits in with all this. She knows that Peter will want to confront the Rhino as Spider-Man, so she makes it easy for him by suggesting a situation where he can easily slip away and battle the villain. Peter even thinks to himself that MJ is exactly the kind of girl a superhero needs precisely because of her suggestion. For the benefit of the readers, the Rhino recalls his origins. It’s not the most creative origin story, but it serves its purpose. Yeah, it's kind of a lame origin story. Also, I always find it unintentionally hilarious how rude the two spies/scientists are to the Rhino about his lack of intelligence before they experiment on him and turn him into his new, super-powered self. The battle between Spider-man and the Rhino in the middle of the street isn’t all that different from their first confrontation a couple issues back, except this time Spidey takes more of a beating and gets a helping hand from one of New York’s finest. That's a great battle sequence. John Romita is simply on fire here! All throughout these scenes, Mary Jane manages to maintain the same carefree attitude she displayed back in the earlier pages at Aunt Anna’s home. I think she only changed her expression once when the TV news of the Rhino’s escape interrupted her music program. Even when the rest of the onlookers appear frightened, Mary Jane is just standing there on the street, smiling and enjoying the show. Mary Jane's carefree, "party girl" personality is such a breath of fresh air in these comics. I also love all her hip, swinger dialogue – not that it's entirely authentic, you understand (it is, after all, a middle-aged Stan Lee trying to write like a youngster), but it's close enough and does sound very Sixties. There's a real Beatnik flavour to a lot of the lingo MJ uses too, which, as a big fan of the Beat Generation poets and authors myself, I quite enjoy. The Rhino remains a major Spider-man villain who has appeared in many comics, and other media, and I think he’s just as good as any of the foes introduced during the Ditko period. I'm afraid I don't quite agree with that. I like the Rhino for sure, but he's very much a B-list adversary for Spider-Man when compared to the likes of Doctor Octopus, the Vulture, the Sandman, the Green Goblin, the Lizard, or even the Scorpion. Steve Ditko's creativity and world-building was unparalleled. I've said it before and I'll probably say it again, there were more classic villains introduced in the first 20 issues of Amazing Spider-Man than there were in the next two decades of the title. An appearance from Flash, Gwen and Harry introduces a new development for a long time cast member. Flash has received his draft notice, a sub-plot which will develop some more in future issues and addresses a topic which was definitely on the minds of many readers at the time. Yeah, having Flash Thompson getting drafted is definitely an example of Stan writing to the college-age readership. It's also the start of the realities of the Vietnam War intruding into the book, though the harshness of that conflict will be fairly watered down, but still, it's an interesting and wholly plausible development for Flash. Overall, I think this is a much better issue than #42 or Annual #3. There's plenty of great action, Romita's artwork is fantastic, and Stan's dialogue is really great. But it's the soap opera moments where this issue really excels for me. The first full introduction of carefree, beatnik Mary Jane Watson is so much fun, news of Flash's being drafted to Vietnam is a shocking, but highly topical surprise, and Peter's old flame Betty Brant gets engaged to Ned Leeds. It's all fabulous Silver Age drama.
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Post by kirby101 on Sept 17, 2024 3:08:40 GMT -5
Sorry, the whole Flash drafted episode was anything but cool with the college kids. The gang all act like it's WWII and Vietnam isn't already seen as a giant cluster f**k. Flash is excited about going and they will give him a heroes send off. No one questions the War. I don't recall Stan being anything but rah rah about it.
Agree with Confessor about Romita's progress as he transitions from keeping the Ditko style.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Sept 17, 2024 3:59:47 GMT -5
Sorry, the whole Flash drafted episode was anything but cool with the college kids. The gang all act like it's WWII and Vietnam isn't already seen as a giant cluster f**k. Flash is excited about going and they will give him a heroes send off. No one questions the War. I don't recall Stan being anything but rah rah about it. That's not quite right. In late 1966, when this issue was published, Vietnam hadn't quite become the divisive and relentless meat-grinder (or cluster f**k, as you put it) that it would become. There had "only" been around 6,000 American deaths in Vietnam by the end of 1966, whereas by the end of 1968 it was more than 30,000. So, at this point, plenty of gung-ho kids like Flash Thompson still felt proud to be going off to do their duties for their country, like their fathers had in WW2. Misguided as this mindset obviously was, it was one shared by the majority of American teenagers who weren't part of the fringe folk-protest/beatnik or proto-hippie crowd in 1966. With the possible exception of Mary Jane, none of the teenage characters in Amazing Spider-Man had been shown to be "right on" or particularly counter-culturally aware. In fact, during the period when Steve Ditko was plotting the series, Peter had been actively dismissive of and hostile towards student protesters. So, I think the characterisation of Flash and his friends here by Stan regarding their attitude towards the Vietnam War is not only in character, but it's one that would've been shared by millions of regular kids across the U.S. at the time. Of course, anti-war sentiment continued to grow throughout 1967, particularly among young people, but it was the Tet Offensive debacle in January 1968 that really turned public support away from the war -- even among many of the older generation. After that, anti-Vietnam sentiment really becomes mainstream in American society, and by 1969 and 1970 it is fairly widespread (despite what Richard Nixon might've believed about "the silent majority"). As I said above, Stan's examination of the awful human cost of the war in the pages of ASM is fairly limited and rather watered down. However, we do at least get to see anti-war student protests that Gwen and Joe Robertson's son Randy take part in at ESU. Peter himself is shown to be sympathetic to the protesters' cause, even while Stan keeps him as neutral as possible.
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Post by kirby101 on Sept 17, 2024 4:17:43 GMT -5
Which issue was that? The "protest issue" #68 was about Student rents. The later Flash Vietnam issue #108 was Romita plotted.
Yes, mainstream sentiment changed with Tet. But colleges had protests since the mid 60s. Reagan ran for Governor in 66 saying he would slap down the campus protestors. I just don't see the students at NYU, ESU, cheering on the war.
If Stan was trying to connect with college students here, he missed by a mile.
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Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,117
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Post by Confessor on Sept 17, 2024 5:03:03 GMT -5
Which issue was that? The "protest issue" #68 was about Student rents. Ah Ok, the student protest in ASM #68 is likely what I was thinking of. My mistake. As I say though, the very fact that Flash goes off to serve in Vietnam is an example of the war intruding into the pages of Spider-Man. But nonetheless, issue #68 is still an example of Stan trying to appeal to the college crowd, though it's likely that he used a somewhat watered-down student grievance like rents instead of a more controversial topic like the war. And, as I noted before, he seems afraid to have Peter support one side or the other in case it alienates a portion of the readership. The later Flash Vietnam issue #108 was Romita plotted. Where did you get that information? The GCD doesn't say that, and I just looked that issue up in the Comics Creators on Spider-Man book and issue #108 is not one of the ones where Romita's credited with co-plotting. Of course, I'm sure Romita was a co-creator of the story insofar as he would've been involved in one of the story conference meetings with Stan that he has often talked about in interviews, but it doesn't seem like he plotted that issue in the same way that he did with issue #81, for instance. Yes, mainstream sentiment changed with Tet. But colleges had protests since the mid 60s. Reagan ran for Governor in 66 saying he would slap down the campus protestors. Yeah, but that was in California where you had student hotbeds of anti-war activism like San Francisco, Berkley and, to a slightly lesser extent, Los Angeles. It's also not just about the number of anti-war protests, but the numbers of people attending those protests, which absolutely ballooned in 1968 and 1969. Don't misunderstand me, I absolutely agree that there were definitely a rising number of anti-war protests in 1966, and Muhammad Ali's refusal to go to Vietnam did an awful lot to popularise the anti-war movement that year too, but the majority of the American public, including young people, still weren't yet against the war in the same way as they were in '68 or '69, for example. If Stan was trying to connect with college students here, he missed by a mile. And yet, by 1966, Stan himself was drawing huge crowds at college campuses. He must've been doing something right.
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Post by kirby101 on Sept 17, 2024 8:33:53 GMT -5
I am remembering or misremembering an interview with Romita about those later issues he drew and inked. Could be wrong.
Don't get me started with Funky Flash an and his college talks.
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