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Post by tarkintino on Sept 17, 2024 9:20:33 GMT -5
That's not quite right. In late 1966, when this issue was published, Vietnam hadn't quite become the divisive and relentless meat-grinder (or cluster f**k, as you put it) that it would become. There had "only" been around 6,000 American deaths in Vietnam by the end of 1966, whereas by the end of 1968 it was more than 30,000. So, at this point, plenty of gung-ho kids like Flash Thompson still felt proud to be going off to do their duties for their country, like their fathers had in WW2. Misguided as this mindset obviously was, it was one shared by the majority of American teenagers who weren't part of the fringe folk-protest/beatnik or proto-hippie crowd in 1966. This is an accurate assessment; personally, I have a very large number of relatives and friends who served in Vietnam during the period in question, and their memories line up with the sentiment expressed by Flash, et al. At the time, Lyndon Johnson still had a measure of good will / trust with a sizeable part of the U.S. population, while media coverage had not swept in the direction which would aid in completely changing the understanding of the war. That said, Lee writing Flash and his friends as being more positive about military service in 1966 was close to the real life recollections of people in my life who were there, which is the polar opposite of the "everyone hated it / knew it was wrong from the start" narrative so often used to frame / inform modern commentaries about the early years of that war. Quite true. The personal cost of Flash's participation in the war will be a subplot in early 70s Lee/Romita issues of TASM, where his jock/gung-ho approach to life had been burned away by the war.
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Post by kirby101 on Sept 17, 2024 9:26:14 GMT -5
Growing up in the 60s. There was opposition to the War early on. It didn't erupt suddenly in 68.
Lee even admitted that he regretted going along with the Commie Red Scare in his books.
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Post by kirby101 on Sept 17, 2024 11:21:19 GMT -5
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Sept 17, 2024 15:20:40 GMT -5
Growing up in the 60s. There was opposition to the War early on. It didn't erupt suddenly in 68. You're absolutely correct about that, and I'm certainly not trying to say otherwise. Without sounding like I'm blowing my own trumpet, I have spent a lot of years learning about the political, social and cultural history of the U.S. and UK during the 1960s; it's something of a hobby horse of mine. So, I like to think I've got a fairly good grasp on what was happening and when. Clearly there were folks associated with the folk-protest movement, assorted beatniks/hippies, and, yes, college students who were attending anti-war marches in 1966, but the numbers going along to protest were a lot, lot smaller than they were by '68 and '69. Plus, as I say, in '66 there were an awful a lot of gung-ho young men who misguidedly felt proud to be going off to Vietnam to serve their country, like their fathers had in WW2. Unfortunately, the full horrors of the conflict hadn't yet become apparent to the majority of youngsters or their parents by 1966.
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Post by kirby101 on Sept 17, 2024 15:30:54 GMT -5
I don't have a problem wit Flash being gung-ho. I have a problem with everyone else cheering him on. It just rings very false to me. It did so when I first read it. As I said, Stan was not anti-War and neither were any characters he scripted.
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Post by tarkintino on Sept 17, 2024 15:41:46 GMT -5
"Everyone cheering him on" was common among social circles who were not necessarily in opposition to each other politically (and considering their suggested ages, they were the children who grew up hearing nothing except American military campaigns always being just, whether that was not the truth behind the curtain). As I've pointed out, that kind of group reaction to military service and Vietnam in 1966 was real in America, and by no means isolated. Lee's writing reflected that perspective accurately.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Sept 17, 2024 15:48:11 GMT -5
I'd love a copy of that. We've discussed these books before, you and I, and they are so cool. It's just a shame they are so expensive.
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Post by kirby101 on Sept 17, 2024 16:21:37 GMT -5
I'd love a copy of that. We've discussed these books before, you and I, and they are so cool. It's just a shame they are so expensive. They are, to my checkbook's dismay. But then again I am not buying old comics anymore.
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Post by kirby101 on Sept 17, 2024 16:26:27 GMT -5
"Everyone cheering him on" was common among social circles who were not necessarily in opposition to each other politically (and considering their suggested ages, they were the children who grew up hearing nothing except American military campaigns always being just, whether that was not the truth behind the curtain). As I've pointed out, that kind of group reaction to military service and Vietnam in 1966 was real in America, and by no means isolated. Lee's writing reflected that perspective accurately. Not when I was growing up in the 60s, not in NY. We "kids" were not al gung ho about Vietnam. And unless his group was the Young Republicans, I doubt they would all cheer him in. I know you think Stan wrote perfect dialog for all these characters, but it rang false. More a 50s hipster vibe, than the 60s generation. He was better with the Spidey quips and over the top villain-speak.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Sept 17, 2024 16:35:08 GMT -5
More a 50s hipster vibe, than the 60s generation. I do sort of agree with this...especially in the case of Mary Jane. I mentioned this a page or so back in my comments for ASM #43... Mary Jane's carefree, "party girl" personality is such a breath of fresh air in these comics. I also love all her hip, swinger dialogue – not that it's entirely authentic, you understand (it is, after all, a middle-aged Stan Lee trying to write like a youngster), but it's close enough. There's a real '50s Beatnik flavour to a lot of the lingo MJ uses, which, as a big fan of the Beat Generation poets and authors myself, I quite enjoy.
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Post by jtrw2024 on Sept 17, 2024 18:28:16 GMT -5
THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 45 (reprinted in Marvel Tales 185) “Spidey Smashes Out!” Credits (as they appear in the comic): A Stan (The Man) Lee / John (Ring-a-Ding) Romita, Adventure in Agonizing Action Lettering Sam Rosen Color Andy Yanchus Plot Synopsis: Spider-man is recovering from the pounding he took last issue, but there's still some unfinished business to settle with the Lizard! Comments: This story picks-up not too long after the end of last issue. Spider-man is still recovering from his injuries, and the Lizard is still on the loose, determined to resume his conquest of the human race. Spider-man has retrieved his automatic camera from where he left it last issue, but doesn’t make any trips to the Daily Bugle this issue. The Bugle cast still make a brief appearance though just to keep everyone up-to-date. Although last issue, Peter made such a big deal about not being able to go out in public sporting the same injuries as his alter-ego for fear of arousing suspicion, he decides to do it anyway. I like how Flash even makes a joking comment about Peter trying to make people think he’s Spider-man. For the record, Peter’s bike is now a “rollickin’ red”! His new means of transportation actually helps to provide a ready-made plausible excuse which he gives to Flash, Harry and even Anna Watson. He’s just got to be sure not to mention anything about that to Aunt May, because we know how much she worries about these things. Gwen doesn’t make any actual appearances this issue, but that doesn’t mean Peter isn’t thinking about her. Since finances are always a problem for Peter, Harry proposes an interesting idea when he suggests a part-time job at his father’s company. This is something that will be brought up a few times, though nothing ever comes of it. Peter and his school mates have actually come a long way since those first few days at Empire State University during Ditko’s run. It’s quite a change seeing them act like actual friends. The action really picks up towards the middle of the story as Spider-man tracks the Lizard to a train yard where a traveling reptile exhibit is making its way to Philadelphia. The fight between Spider-man and the Lizard takes up a good amount of pages, and with his arm still injured and bandaged, our hero is fighting with a handicap. . John Romita does a good job keeping things consistent as he shows Spidey fighting one-handed throughout the story. The sleeve of his costume was torn at the end of last issue, but he’s back in a full costume for the start of this issue. The Lizard attacks Spidey with an army of reptiles which he commands, providing the opportunity for some unique action. The big fight between Spider-man and the Lizard takes place atop a speeding train which is well choreographed and culminates inside an enclosed refrigerator car which provides the means by which the villain is defeated. Of course, defeating the Lizard is only the first step. The Lizard isn’t just any ordinary foe which Spider-man can leave for the authorities, so restoring Dr. Connors to normal and reuniting him with his family is always a priority. The panel where Spider-man is seen leaving the Connors family has empty word-balloons, for the reader to fill-in themselves. It’s a cute gimmick, but if you’re buying this as a back issue, check first to make sure no one has filled in the blanks! On his way home, Peter runs into Harry and Mary Jane who are out on a casual date. These two just met last issue, but future issues will eventually show them together a lot more. At the moment though, it’s just MJ being MJ and going wherever the party is. Once again, the story ends on a bleak note, but this can’t last forever can it? Check out that teaser for next issue! Notable differences in the reprint: The Marvel Tales reprint once again omits Irving Forbush’s name from the credits. What did they have against this guy? There’s a line of dialogue where Spider-man incorrectly refers to the Lizard as the Scorpion, but it’s been corrected for this reprint. A full page of Post Office of the Past letters, commenting on this story. Jim Owsley, Editor. Adam Blaustein, Assistant Editor Instead of a reprinted Bullpen Bulletins, this issue of Marvel Tales includes, one of the pages from a backup story originally appearing in Amazing Spider-man Annual 1. It’s page nine from the Secrets of Spider-man feature. The page stands on its own, but if they weren’t going to reprint the rest of it, they could have at least bothered to removed the page number Personal anecdotes: I picked up the previous issue of Marvel Tales as a back issue around 1988-89, but the store must not have had this one at the time. I’m sure if I saw consecutive covers featuring the Lizard, I would have realized it was a two-parter, and either bought both (if I had the cash), or picked another single-issue story instead. For the longest time, I actually didn’t even realize the Lizard story had been continued into the following issue. Even though the previous issue ended with the Lizard on the loose, the Marvel Tales letters page for part 1 messed up by including a next issue box for ASM 48. I just assumed the sub-plots from ASM 44 would bleed over into a Kraven/Vulture story, and that the Lizard would be dealt with in a later issue. As it was, I didn’t read this story until the late 90s, in black-and-white as part of the Essential Spider-man collections, and this was my first time reading it in Marvel Tales
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Post by jtrw2024 on Sept 18, 2024 19:01:58 GMT -5
THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 46 (reprinted in Marvel Tales 186) “The Sinister Shocker!” Credits (as they appear in the comic): A Stan Lee/John Romita Spiderific Spectacular! Lettered by Sam Rosen Colored by Andy Yanchus Plot Synopsis: Spider-man meets a shocking new foe, the Shocker! Comments: Spider-man has still not fully recovered from the injury he sustained a couple issues back. This puts him at a slight disadvantage for his first brief encounter with a new villain called the Shocker. Their first battle doesn’t exactly go so well for Spidey, but fortunately good things are right around the corner for our hapless hero. Around the corner, is right It seems like no sooner does Peter change out of his costume then Harry Osborn drives up and offers him the opportunity to room with him at the new apartment that his father is paying for. A few short issues ago, these kids were just classmates at ESU who didn’t really get along, but now they’re practically best pals. Peter even thinks the same thing to himself as Harry drives off. Harry also makes a comment about calling up Gwen to double date with Peter and Mary Jane. Harry was out with MJ last issue, but Peter thinks to himself that Harry has been seeing a lot of Gwen lately. Eventually the usual arrangement will become Pete/Gwen, Harry/MJ, but I wonder if that was always the plan, or did Stan and/or Johnny have something else in mind before changing course? Right now it’s just the usual casual dating among friends. Frederick Foswell has become increasingly suspicious these last few issues, about Peter and his ability to deliver exclusive pics of Spider-man. Earlier in the issue when Peter drops by the Daily Bugle to deliver J. Jonah Jameson some photos of Spider-man’s first battle with the Shocker, Foswell takes advantage of the opportunity to do a little investigating in his other identity Patch. Foswell has been a recurring character for quite some time, but his alter-ego doesn’t pop up too often. I think this is his first appearance as. Patch since Ditko departed. When Patch stumbles onto the truth about Spider-man and Peter, our hero manages to improvise a quick elaborate deception to convince him otherwise. This is a silly plan that would fit right in with any random silver-age comic published by Marvel’s Distinguished Competition, but it works. No reason that it shouldn’t. If I heard Peter and Spider-man talking with two distinct voices, then saw both of them at the same time, I’d be convinced! The Shocker is the second new villain to be introduced during John Romita’s run. Romita wasn’t really as prolific as Ditko was when it came to coming up with new villains, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. It’s not like all of Ditko’s run had a new villain every issue. I like the villains Romita came up with, even if there weren’t that many, and, naturally, his other contributions, particularly to the development of the supporting cast was something only he could bring to the table. Though he is sometimes depicted as a stand-in for Electro, the Shocker’s powers are actually unique, and he has an interesting costume design which actually serves a practical purpose. Some later writers treat him as a joke, but he makes a decent opponent for Spidey, at least in this story. If I were to bother ranking the villains, I don’t think the Shocker would necessarily make my top-ten list, but he’s a popular enough character who has appeared in plenty of comics and been adapted to cartoons, and movies . His real name is Herman Schultz, which doesn’t get revealed until later on, though his origin is told via a quick flashback. For some reason, in the Spectacular Spider-man cartoon, the Shocker is really Montana of the Enforcers. . Aunt May returns from her vacation, and informs her nephew that she wants to move in with Mrs. Watson, which helps assuage Peter’s concerns about leaving her alone. Some scenes at the Silver Spoon provide the usual appearances from Peter’s friends from ESU. Flash is getting ready to depart for the army, and a farewell party is to be held next issue. The action scenes in this issue are good, especially once Spider-man is fully recovered from his injury and can fight the Shocker with the full use of both arms. The Shocker’s power-set allows for long range attacks which are a bit different from the fights John Romita has drawn these past few issues where Spider-man has fought mainly super-strong opponents. There’s a lot of acrobatic action which gives Romita the opportunity to draw some cool Spidey poses, but also some hand-to-hand combat as the Shocker’s Vibro-shock unit enhances the force of his punches. The fight scene goes on for a few pages, but Spider-man manages to defeat the Shocker in a clever way, that no other hero could (unless they had web-shooters). Unlike the last two issues, this one has a more optimistic tone to it. Not only is Spider-man back in full-fighting form, but he’s ready to move on to the next stage of his life. With Aunt May moving in to Mrs. Watson’s house, Peter is free to take up Harry on his offer to share an apartment close to campus. Peter suggests that Aunt May sell her house to ensure their financial stability for the next few years, but much later stories will reveal that she only allowed the house to be rented-out. Regardless, that’s still probably a good deal, as Peter will be living rent free and still has his scholarship to cover tuition expenses. May mentions that Mrs. Watson will be driving them to their new home, even though other issues established her as a neighbor (not sure if these early stories confirmed she lived right next door, but future stories definitely did, and they were close enough to walk over as recently as issue 42). The last page of this story only offers a quick glimpse of Peter Parker’s new pad, but it will be a recurrent setting for many years to come. Even with all these good things happening, though, Peter still can’t help feeling depressed as the story closes. Notable differences in the reprint: The Marvel Tales cover makes room for the UPC box, and cleverly incorporates it into the border that they’ve been using for the past year. I’ve got two copies of this issue, and the Direct Market edition leaves the space empty instead of filling it with the usual Spider-man face, or something like that. Post Office of the Past is included here, with reprinted letters commenting on the Shocker’s debut issue. Jim Owsley, Editor. Adam Blaustein, Assistant Editor Page five and 3 from the Secrets of Spider-man feature originally appearing in Amazing Spider-man Annual 1, are reprinted here. This feature wasn’t included when Marvel Tales reprinted ASM Annual 1, so it’s nice to see some of it included here, even if it’s one or two pages at a time, in random order. Personal anecdotes: Yet another issue of Marvel Tales I didn’t get when it was coming out, nor as a back issue. I was familiar with the Shocker already since an early age, as he appeared in another Amazing Spider-man comic I had when I was a kid, but never had an opportunity or reason to get this one. I’d eventually read the story for the first time, in black-and-white in the Essential Spider-man, and read it for the first time in Marvel Tales for this very review thread!
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Post by tarkintino on Sept 18, 2024 20:19:37 GMT -5
"Everyone cheering him on" was common among social circles who were not necessarily in opposition to each other politically (and considering their suggested ages, they were the children who grew up hearing nothing except American military campaigns always being just, whether that was not the truth behind the curtain). As I've pointed out, that kind of group reaction to military service and Vietnam in 1966 was real in America, and by no means isolated. Lee's writing reflected that perspective accurately. Not when I was growing up in the 60s, not in NY. We "kids" were not al gung ho about Vietnam. And unless his group was the Young Republicans, I doubt they would all cheer him in. I know you think Stan wrote perfect dialog for all these characters, but it rang false. More a 50s hipster vibe, than the 60s generation. He was better with the Spidey quips and over the top villain-speak. The memories of relatives and friends who served in Vietnam--the perspectives (of the period in question) they have recalled over the decades is not "false" but reality. You can despise Lee as much as you like, but his characterization related to the service mirrors real people who were of age to serve.
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Post by berkley on Sept 19, 2024 1:07:04 GMT -5
Growing up in the 60s. There was opposition to the War early on. It didn't erupt suddenly in 68. Lee even admitted that he regretted going along with the Commie Red Scare in his books.
Yeah, but I wonder - was that in hindsight? I find this interesting - do any of the Stan Lee biographies go into the timeline of his changing political and social views in detail?
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Post by kirby101 on Sept 19, 2024 9:30:20 GMT -5
Growing up in the 60s. There was opposition to the War early on. It didn't erupt suddenly in 68. Lee even admitted that he regretted going along with the Commie Red Scare in his books.
Yeah, but I wonder - was that in hindsight? I find this interesting - do any of the Stan Lee biographies go into the timeline of his changing political and social views in detail?
Stan's anti communist stance wasn't that out of the ordinary. I think he did say this in hindsight, like a lot of America that took a different view of the Red Scare later on. I don't have a problem with all the Commie villains. It fits for popular culture. My main observation is the unrealistic portrayal of New York college students about the draft.
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