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Post by kirby101 on Aug 11, 2023 10:29:08 GMT -5
The story inside ended with a local desert tribe helping to blow up the fort. But my favorite Kirby cover here shows the Howlers retreating in defeat. ![](http://images.wwcomics.com/images/large/SgtF_16_JF.jpg)
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Post by berkley on Aug 11, 2023 18:21:48 GMT -5
Sorry UBerBat fans, Deathstroke destroys Batman in a one on one.
Imagine what he could have done it he hadn't been hindered by those big, clumsy buccaneer boots!
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Post by Batflunkie on Aug 11, 2023 18:30:47 GMT -5
The first Thor vs Mangog was a big one for me as a kid, with Mangog defeating not only Thor but the entire armed forces of Asgard in a running battle that takes place over 4 issues. It was undermined by Odin saving the day too easily at the end but up to that point there was an overwhelming atmosphere of defeat and tragedy, quite stark and impressive to me as a young reader. Something that baffled me, especially when Mangog later re-appeared during Conway's tenure, is that he didn't really exist was just an extremely powerful spell created by Odin?
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Post by Prince Hal on Aug 11, 2023 23:09:42 GMT -5
The first Thor vs Mangog was a big one for me as a kid, with Mangog defeating not only Thor but the entire armed forces of Asgard in a running battle that takes place over 4 issues. It was undermined by Odin saving the day too easily at the end but up to that point there was an overwhelming atmosphere of defeat and tragedy, quite stark and impressive to me as a young reader. I can't think of anything else in superhero comics that quite matches it - perhaps Dr. Strange vs Dormammu (or rather his forces and minions), again up to the anticlimactic ending that completely undermined the atmosphere that had been built up so effectively until then. Couldn't agree more. That saga could have/ should have gone on more than a bit longer.
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Post by Cei-U! on Aug 12, 2023 3:40:28 GMT -5
Kirby, with or without Lee, relied way too heavily on those kind of deus ex machina endings (think Galactus and the Ultimate Nullifier) for me to ever consider him a first-class storyteller. As an idea man, he was unparalleled but he was often, not always, a careless plotter.
Cei-U! His crown may be tarnished but he's still King Kirby!
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 12, 2023 3:56:14 GMT -5
Kirby, with or without Lee, relied way too heavily on those kind of deus ex machina endings (think Galactus and the Ultimate Nullifier) for me to ever consider him a first-class storyteller. As an idea man, he was unparalleled but he was often, not always, a careless plotter. Cei-U! His crown may be tarnished but he's still King Kirby! I totally agree. His stories were just average.
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Post by driver1980 on Aug 12, 2023 6:13:00 GMT -5
Kirby, with or without Lee, relied way too heavily on those kind of deus ex machina endings (think Galactus and the Ultimate Nullifier) for me to ever consider him a first-class storyteller. As an idea man, he was unparalleled but he was often, not always, a careless plotter. Cei-U! His crown may be tarnished but he's still King Kirby! I totally agree. His stories were just average. I may agree with that. It brings up the eternal debate: art or story. The story in All-Star Batman is woeful, but for me, Jim Lee’s art softened the blow slightly, even if I wish I could have got a refund. However, bad art can’t save a good story for me. I do dislike Erik Larsen’s art, so I just can’t get into stories featuring his art. So, yes, I can be in awe of Kirby’s art, but if I was to write a thesis on some of his stories, I might not endorse them.
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Post by Prince Hal on Aug 12, 2023 6:58:05 GMT -5
Kirby, with or without Lee, relied way too heavily on those kind of deus ex machina endings (think Galactus and the Ultimate Nullifier) for me to ever consider him a first-class storyteller. As an idea man, he was unparalleled but he was often, not always, a careless plotter. Cei-U! His crown may be tarnished but he's still King Kirby! Exhibit B: “Bedlam at the Baxter Building.”
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Post by kirby101 on Aug 12, 2023 21:35:13 GMT -5
Kirby, with or without Lee, relied way too heavily on those kind of deus ex machina endings (think Galactus and the Ultimate Nullifier) for me to ever consider him a first-class storyteller. As an idea man, he was unparalleled but he was often, not always, a careless plotter. Cei-U! His crown may be tarnished but he's still King Kirby! Exhibit B: “Bedlam at the Baxter Building.” Considering he had two feet out the door, I thought that was a pretty good Kirby plotted story.
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Post by Prince Hal on Aug 12, 2023 22:04:51 GMT -5
Exhibit B: “Bedlam at the Baxter Building.” Considering he had two feet out the door, I thought that was a pretty good Kirby plotted story. It was fun seeing a 20-plus-page slugfest/ romance comic, but it had a deus ex machina ending that actually defied the background that had been established for the Watcher... And the annual came out in 1965, five years before Kirby left either the FF or Marvel. He wasn't mailing it in in 1965, was he? "I am not permitted to interfere with whatever you may do, but pick out a little something for you and the wife, Reed."
"Ah, just what our honeymoon cottage needs, a sub-atronic time displacer.... And it matches the wallpaper in the kitchen."
![](https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-j2BVV6RUC2Q/YHth9abBMxI/AAAAAAABQ9c/M9i7Cr8S9-A202ERBdxg6nQYBP1Pk4XLQCPcBGAsYHg/s640/ffann3_22.jpg)
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Post by Cei-U! on Aug 13, 2023 3:40:16 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure kirby101 was referring to the Mangog story, Hal, not the wedding annual.
Cei-U! I summon the case of mistaken identity!
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Post by kirby101 on Aug 13, 2023 5:22:05 GMT -5
No I was referring to FF #101. Bedlam in the Baxter Building, the FF take on the Maggia. As for Annual 3, you chastise Kirby for a quickie resolution after he has figured out how to put almost every Marvel character into one story? Besides, the real ending is Jack and Stan being shown the door. And The Universal Nullifying in FF #50 was a brilliant resolution. I summon the ultimate game of chicken.
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Post by Cei-U! on Aug 13, 2023 5:52:38 GMT -5
And The Universal Nullifying in FF #50 was a brilliant resolution. I summon the ultimate game of chicken. Brilliant? Hardly. It was the prototypical Kirby deus ex machina ending. Not to mention it was at least the fourth time the Watcher had to bail out the FF, because God forbid the heroes should actually defeat the bad guy through their own efforts in their own book. But then my disdain for the Galactus "Trilogy" is hardly a secret.
Cei-U! Let us agree to disagree!
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Post by kirby101 on Aug 13, 2023 6:36:23 GMT -5
Yes, I think you have made your opinion clear on that. As wrong headed as it may be. ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png)
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Post by Prince Hal on Aug 13, 2023 8:46:59 GMT -5
No I was referring to FF #101. Bedlam in the Baxter Building, the FF take on the Maggia. As for Annual 3, you chastise Kirby for a quickie resolution after he has figured out how to put almost every Marvel character into one story? Besides, the real ending is Jack and Stan being shown the door. And The Universal Nullifying in FF #50 was a brilliant resolution. I summon the ultimate game of chicken. So not only was Kirby reusing that old reliable ending, he was also recycling titles? ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) (Yes, I know it was probably someone else's doing...)
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