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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2014 17:52:38 GMT -5
Hey, Brian, you checked in just in time! I'm listing my Top Six Doctor Doom stories! I read the story in Marvel Super-Heroes #20 years ago when it was reprinted in Giant-Size Super=Villain Team-Up, but it's been a while and I don't remember it so well. Do you remember Super-Villain Team-Up? It was such a CRAZEE comic book! They would fight Attuma, the Avengers would show up, the Shroud would be hiding in the bushes, Doom would enslave Namor, Henry Kissinger would fly in for an issue. (That's not a joke!) I've only read a few issues of the Doom series in Astonishing Tales. What I saw was very intriguing. (But the real test: What do you think of Hero for Hire #9?) I have all of the Astonishing Tales, and that would be my other favorite solo Doom arc. It actually picks up right where Marvel Super-Heroes #20 left off, with Doom creating the Doomsman android to search for Valeria while dealing with a Latverian prince who plots to invade Doom's castle and steal the throne. The Doomsman starts acting weird, then an alien called The Faceless One appears out of nowhere to also invade the castle. You won't believe what Dr. Doom does to resolve all of this, and it is just awesome fun. I'm glad you mentioned Super-Villain Team-Up. I've never read the series, and I'm probably going to buy it soon starting with the Giant-Size issues. Sounds right up my alley. And sadly I have yet to read Hero for Hire #9, but it's on my want list! I've been collecting Doom appearances lately, with the most recent purchase being Daredevil #37 and #38 where they switch bodies.
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ironchimp
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Post by ironchimp on May 7, 2014 18:10:06 GMT -5
I'm probably in the minority here but I wound up really liking the Tom DeFalco/Paul Ryan run on The Fantastic Four.I liked the multiple subplots that were going on and reminded me how Marvel relied on a lot of soap opera and character developement in the 60s.Yes,the Johnny got the hots for Alicia came out of the blue but I wound up forgiving it and enjoyed the Lyja reveal the alicia / johnny thing was before DeFalco's time. one of the first things DeFalco did was saying she was Lyja. no? the bits of that run i have read i liked too. it started off a bit messy but once it got going it was just an enjoyable read and paul ryan's art was pretty good.
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on May 7, 2014 18:33:43 GMT -5
Scott, you mentioned earlier that you did read earlier FF and didn't like it. I've been wondering which issues you're familiar with, especially since you know enough about it to mention the problem of Franklin. How do you feel about pre-Franklin FF?
Once upon a time, way back when I was a kid, I was pretty into FF. Then, two roads diverged in a yellow wood, and I took the one marked Avengers. Basically, when I first started buying back issues, I was kind of all over the place. My Dad suggested I focus on one title and then move to another only after the first was done. FF was one of my favorite books at the time, but after doing some research, I just thought it was too expensive. I wanted some challenge, but I wanted to actually accomplish it. Avengers seemed much easier to complete while still being a good collecting challenge, so I ended up picking Avengers. Turns out Avengers is awesome and still my favorite superhero book of all time, so that was a very lucky decision. But as a result of my early flirtation with FF, I still ended up with a lot of FF issues before I quit the book and got rid of them. At one point I think I had almost but not quite the whole run from #195-310. I also had a smattering of back issues before that from around #130-190, plus a handful of early issues. At one point I briefly owned a copy of #5. I also owned #7, along with some issues in the 20's, not to mention #50 and #52. Over the years I have read more; I have the first two Essentials volumes and have basically read #1-26 at least, with a smattering of later Lee/Kirby issues - including #48-53 and some of the Torgo storyline around #90. So I'm pretty familiar with the team and the different creative eras, but I have not actually read the bulk of the later Lee/Kirby run after they really hit their stride. From what I have read, I see nothing to suggest that the common belief that it is the best run in the history of superhero comics is wrong. I'm guessing it probably is. Having said that, and again with the caveat that I haven['t read a lot of the later Lee/Kirby run, I know I am in the extreme minority when I say that my favorite FF era is the first 25 issues. Or, to put it in a more controversial way. I am more into Lee's FF than Kirby's FF. Before Lee turned Kirby loose to unleash his genius on the world by plotting the book - and before Marvel became so successful that lee didn't have time to really write everything closely himself - Lee seemed to be more hands on. The early issues just have an energy and a madcap sense of humor that got lost later when the stories became more epic. I love stuff like the FF answering fan mail and Thing getting bopped in the face by a boxing glove jack in the box. Those early issues feel like Stan was really cutting loose because he didn't care any more; once it became a hit and he started caring again, and started letting Jack take more control, the stories got tighter and better, but they lost that "any ridiculous thing could happen next" energy.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2014 22:47:38 GMT -5
And sadly I have yet to read Hero for Hire #9, but it's on my want list! Oddly enough, that's the only early issue of the series I own; it was a random, & IIRC by far the oldest, inclusion in a lot of nondescript comics I bought off a guy needing money badly when he came to the collectibles shop where I worked back around 2005. (That is, I bought them for myself; no way would the store's owner have countenanced such a purchase, for however little money, considering the ordinariness of the issues involved ... not that we really dealt in comics anyway.)
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Post by Hoosier X on May 7, 2014 23:49:35 GMT -5
Over the years I have read more; I have the first two Essentials volumes and have basically read #1-26 at least, with a smattering of later Lee/Kirby issues - including #48-53 and some of the Torgo storyline around #90. Or, to put it in a more controversial way. I am more into Lee's FF than Kirby's FF. Before Lee turned Kirby loose to unleash his genius on the world by plotting the book - and before Marvel became so successful that lee didn't have time to really write everything closely himself - Lee seemed to be more hands on. The early issues just have an energy and a madcap sense of humor that got lost later when the stories became more epic. I love stuff like the FF answering fan mail and Thing getting bopped in the face by a boxing glove jack in the box. Those early issues feel like Stan was really cutting loose because he didn't care any more; once it became a hit and he started caring again, and started letting Jack take more control, the stories got tighter and better, but they lost that "any ridiculous thing could happen next" energy.
That's not a bad mix. There's certainly a lot of good stories in there that I like. The Torgo storyline is definitely an under-rated gem. And I love those early issues as well. Like Kurrgo, the Master of Planet X in #7. Or the FF going broke and having to hitchhike to Hollywood to make a movie in #9. Or some of that crazy gibberish in #19 where they get captured by ancient Egyptians but the sun somehow turns the Thing back into Ben Grimm, enabling him to escape.
But it's so uneven. I love #21 to #27, that's seven really good issues in a row, but then there's a bunch of stories that are fun, sure, but they are just so silly and ridiculous, with nothing at the core that you can care about too much. The FF would have failed if they kept doing stories like #29, #31, #32, #34.
It really gets good with #36, the first Frightful Four. And it gets real good real fast. For me, the run from #36 to #60 is just flat-our amazing, not a bad issue in the bunch. And from there to #90 or so (the end of the Torgo storyline, whichever issue it is) is almost as good, with just a few missteps (Psycho-Man comes to mind.)
So, for me, FF #36 to #92 is the Great Golden Age for the FF.
(And I like The Avengers too. I just haven't read nearly as much as you. I've read every issue to #46, and then from #130 up to #280. And in between those issues, I've read about half of them.)
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Post by Hoosier X on May 7, 2014 23:50:43 GMT -5
So, Dan B., what did you think of Hero for Hire #9. Fun, huh?
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Post by Icctrombone on May 8, 2014 3:58:15 GMT -5
the alicia / johnny thing was before DeFalco's time. one of the first things DeFalco did was saying she was Lyja. no? the bits of that run i have read i liked too. it started off a bit messy but once it got going it was just an enjoyable read and paul ryan's art was pretty good.o I'm with you on this run. I thought having Johnny marry Alicia was such a bad idea. Ben and johnny were like brothers and he should never have back stabbed him. I loved the Defalco and Ryan run too.
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Post by The Captain on May 8, 2014 12:06:03 GMT -5
I didn't grow up reading FF, as I was more into Star Wars, then GI Joe, then Amazing Spider-Man and Uncanny X-Men. However, as I've gotten older, I've gained a huge appreciation for the series.
I've managed to put together a run of floppies from #125 to the end of the most recent series by Fraction, and I am planning on getting the two Omnibus editions to pick up the initial issues of the series, then use a combination of Masterworks (to get to issue #100) and floppies (from #100 to #124, of which I already have about 1/3 of them) to complete the entire run.
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ironchimp
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Post by ironchimp on May 8, 2014 15:28:42 GMT -5
I'm with you on this run. I thought having Johnny marry Alicia was such a bad idea. Ben and johnny were like brothers and he should never have back stabbed him. I loved the Defalco and Ryan run too. i feel better now. i was under the impression this wasnt a loved run, so everytime i read it- i keep thinking i'm enjoying - do i just have terrible taste. urghh ben giving jonny away at his wedding to alicia - the whole thing was a terrible idea from start to finish. When i read deFalco's "oh she was a skrull" - at first i thought "can this whole story line get any worse" but looking back it was really the only option to take to redeem ben from being a doormat, johnny to get some comeuppance, to keep alicia alive, and to finally sort that terrible plot line out. comics...
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Post by Hoosier X on May 8, 2014 15:38:15 GMT -5
What issue did they reveal that the Alicia that Johnny married was a Skrull? I know the basic storyline and I've probably seen online scans of the appropriate panels, but I don't think I've ever read the story.
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ironchimp
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Post by ironchimp on May 8, 2014 16:27:19 GMT -5
357 i think might have been the reveal and 358 the story of how
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Post by Hoosier X on May 8, 2014 17:01:29 GMT -5
357 i think might have been the reveal and 358 the story of how OMG! So when did the Johnny/"Alicia" romance start? Wasn't it around #280? So Alicia was a prisoner of the Skrulls for 80 issues?!?
Even in Marvel-time, that's a year or two. Wow!
I really don't feel like I missed much by giving up on the FF by #295.
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Post by Rob Allen on May 8, 2014 17:36:09 GMT -5
I've heard from tolworthy; he may show up here soon. He's just added an update to his "Great American Novel" site, about issue #291 mostly, although there are references to many other issues.
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Post by berkley on May 8, 2014 19:59:02 GMT -5
The first issue of FF I ever bought off the stands was #163... which went on sale just after my sixth birthday. I probably bought because of the hockey imagery as I was already a huge fan of the New England Whalers and attended games whenever my dad got tickets. I was a bit confused by the 2 Johnny Storms in the issue at the time, as I was familiar with Human Torch from issues of Marvel Team Up I had. It must not have made a very good impression on me as a kid though, as I did not get another issue of FF until 185 (which I must have liked more because I got 185-187). As I have noted elsewhere, I was a die hard Avengers fan as a kid, but I did like the FF. I had gotten Origins and Son of Origins and really liked the early FF issues there, and Marvel Two-In-One was a frequent buy with my allowance as well. However, I did not start reading FF regularly until I was old enough to have a job and a decent comic budget, which was sometime in the middle of the Byrne run. I've now read through much of the Kirby run via Masterworks (1-20) and Essentials (most of the rest). Overall I will say I like the FF, but I don't think I ever loved them. They are the cornerstone of the MU, and there are a lot of amazing stories, but like Scott Harris, I never really connected to them the way I did with the Avengers or Doc Strange, or even Spider-Man when I was younger. I still read and enjoy some FF stuff, and am always eager to sample the stuff from between Kirby and Byrne, but I will never have a passion for the the FF the way some of y'all do.I think it's great that y'all do have that passion though, I love seeing comics connect with people that way. -M This was the first FF issue I remember buying after I got back into comics around the time it came out. I too was gratified by the hockey motif and the mention of Bernie Parent. But the very first FF issue I remember reading for sure is FF 81, though there may have been something before then. I followed the series off and on until a few issues after Kirby left, when I stopped buying comics almost completely for 3 or 4 years.
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Post by coke & comics on May 8, 2014 20:07:27 GMT -5
Hey, Brian, you checked in just in time! I'm listing my Top Six Doctor Doom stories! I read the story in Marvel Super-Heroes #20 years ago when it was reprinted in Giant-Size Super=Villain Team-Up, but it's been a while and I don't remember it so well. Do you remember Super-Villain Team-Up? It was such a CRAZEE comic book! They would fight Attuma, the Avengers would show up, the Shroud would be hiding in the bushes, Doom would enslave Namor, Henry Kissinger would fly in for an issue. (That's not a joke!) I've only read a few issues of the Doom series in Astonishing Tales. What I saw was very intriguing. (But the real test: What do you think of Hero for Hire #9?) I have all of the Astonishing Tales, and that would be my other favorite solo Doom arc. It actually picks up right where Marvel Super-Heroes #20 left off, with Doom creating the Doomsman android to search for Valeria while dealing with a Latverian prince who plots to invade Doom's castle and steal the throne. The Doomsman starts acting weird, then an alien called The Faceless One appears out of nowhere to also invade the castle. You won't believe what Dr. Doom does to resolve all of this, and it is just awesome fun. I'm glad you mentioned Super-Villain Team-Up. I've never read the series, and I'm probably going to buy it soon starting with the Giant-Size issues. Sounds right up my alley. And sadly I have yet to read Hero for Hire #9, but it's on my want list! I've been collecting Doom appearances lately, with the most recent purchase being Daredevil #37 and #38 where they switch bodies. I love Super-Villain Team-Up. It definitely begins with the two giant size issues, and the battle with Attuma ties into Avengers. My favorite SVTU story is my favorite Doom story and one of my favorite superhero stories ever. It takes place in SVTU #1 and Champions #17. Dr. Doom has enslaved the mind of everybody on earth. Magneto is the last person with free will and must stand alone to save the world from Doom.
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