|
Post by Miss Fantastic on May 7, 2014 13:29:16 GMT -5
I don't want to seem like I'm piling on, because I think this thread is great. But it makes me feel like I should enjoy it a lot more than I do. So I also have been examining why I never got into FF, and I think I finally figured it out: Franklin Richards. I don't mind the character, really, though I rarely want to read anything in superhero comics about kids. I just usually find those kinds of stories annoying, whether it's the whole "Cyclops' baby" thing in X-Factor or whatever. I just find those stories and characters to usually be irritating. But in this case, the problem isn't with Franklin himself, it's with the advent of the "illusion of change" in Marvel Comics. For the first several years of Marvel's history, things actually happened, which is one reason the company was so innovative and vibrant. in ASM, Peter got older, time passed, he graduated high school and went to college. in FF, Reed and Sue got married, she got pregnant, she had a kid. Things changed. But then they froze everything, drastically slowing down the passage of time to the point of complete stasis. And I think FF was maybe the most affected by this, because it stuck Franklin at toddler age and therefore saddled thebook with a literally never ending series of stories about or featuring a four year old. And the hoops writers have tried to jump through to get around this, like aging him up via time travel or whatever, end up being even worse. Four year olds just aren't interesting. Ask anyone who has a Facebook feed how much they enjoy their friends constantly posting idiotic stories about whatever "cute" thing their toddler just did. It's maybe the most irritating thing in the world, and thanks to editorial policy, FF was basically that annoying parent posting about their kid for 30 straight years. Yeah, I think I handled this by ignoring Franklin as much as possible. (And as often as he was left to the tender care of Agatha Harkness, it wasn't hard to ignore Franklin when he wasn't needed for a plot development.) I think he got up to about age 7 or 8 in the early 1980s. And then Byrne reverted him back to about 3. Big mistake. But hardly the worst thing Byrne did to the FF.
You're not "piling on." Franklin is problematic. And my strategy of ignoring Franklin got harder and harder.
Scott, you mentioned earlier that you did read earlier FF and didn't like it. I've been wondering which issues you're familiar with, especially since you know enough about it to mention the problem of Franklin. How do you feel about pre-Franklin FF?
I must say, gentlemen, thank you for making me feel so, SO MUCH BETTER and considerably less guilty about having a very strong dislike for Franklin, and nearly ever since the beginning of my 'Fantasticism'. It is not as potent as my uber-dislike for Valeria, but it ranks up there. I've always felt that Franklin has been and is more of a detriment than a benefit to the Fantastic Four series over the years. And there are only three Franklin-centric stories I've ever honest-to-goodnessly liked...the aforementioned FF #245 and FF vs. X-Men limited, and FF #276-277, where Franklin was crucial in 'raising hell' AND in turn defeating Mephisto (that and FF #271-273 are my favorite Byrne run later half stories). Interestingly, an article I happened upon last year revealed not only Byrne's desire for there to have been a second FF spin-off called Fantastic Four-Ever, but also potential plans to kill Franklin off sometime during the course of that. I unfortunately can't find the article now, but if any of you do, please, PLEASE post it...very worthwhile reading for any and everyone interested in the FF. And I have to admit that I did a little 'golf clap' at my monitor when I first read what Byrne would have done with Franklin if he'd had his way.
|
|
|
Post by Hoosier X on May 7, 2014 13:29:17 GMT -5
I forgot to mention FF #236. It's just about perfect. It's one of those issues from Byrne's run that almost makes it possible to forgive Byrne for some of his disastrous decisions. Byrne's run was very long. There were bad things and good things. Just keep the good. It's hard. I just can't get Spinnerette out of my mind.
|
|
|
Post by Ozymandias on May 7, 2014 13:31:47 GMT -5
Byrne's run was very long. There were bad things and good things. Just keep the good. It's hard. I just can't get Spinnerette out of my mind. Oh well, there goes my chance of selling you my copy of FF #237.
|
|
|
Post by Ozymandias on May 7, 2014 13:34:46 GMT -5
Speaking of those dumb sci-fi stories he did. Like the ones in the negative zone. I seem to remember Byrne saying he wrote them when he was a kid and had them stored or something. That would explain a lot.
|
|
|
Post by Hoosier X on May 7, 2014 13:38:53 GMT -5
Speaking of those dumb sci-fi stories he did. Like the ones in the negative zone. I seem to remember Byrne saying he wrote them when he was a kid and had them stored or something. That would explain a lot. I think we should just be thankful that Byrne never did a story where Sue was hypnotized into making a porno movie.
Thanks, John!
|
|
|
Post by Miss Fantastic on May 7, 2014 13:44:58 GMT -5
I forgot to mention FF #236. It's just about perfect. It's one of those issues from Byrne's run that almost makes it possible to forgive Byrne for some of his disastrous decisions. Indeed...and if I had to pick my one utmost favorite Byrne FF issue/story, it would, without any hemming and hawing, be FF #236/"Terror In A Tiny Town". And I'd just about rank it as THE BEST FF story EVER, if I really and seriously had to choose such a thing. Ever since the thunderstorm ridden day I first read #236 as a mere ten year old, mentioned back a couple of pages ago, it has never gotten 'old' at all with each subsequent reading. And as quite the Twilight Zone fan, I've always felt that if any FF story ever had a Serling-esque touch to it, "Terror In A Tiny Town" was/still is most certainly it. I love this key piece FF lore so much that when I was presented with the opportunity to own some pieces of the process that went into FF #236's creation, specifically color guides, I immediately jumped at it. (click on this to see more pictures)
|
|
|
Post by Ozymandias on May 7, 2014 13:47:46 GMT -5
Speaking of those dumb sci-fi stories he did. Like the ones in the negative zone. I seem to remember Byrne saying he wrote them when he was a kid and had them stored or something. That would explain a lot. I think we should just be thankful that Byrne never did a story where Sue was hypnotized into making a porno movie.
Thanks, John!
He was saving that one.
|
|
|
Post by Miss Fantastic on May 7, 2014 13:49:30 GMT -5
I think we should just be thankful that Byrne never did a story where Sue was hypnotized into making a porno movie.
Thanks, John!
He was saving that one. One could make the grand argument he came close with that Malice storyline (FF #280-281). I've always felt that was rather dreadfully overrated, and just because it was where Sue finally started referring to herself as the Invisible Woman instead of the Invisible Girl. It was certainly long overdue, but could have happened a bit earlier AND in a better manner. But *does her best Dennis Miller* that's just my opinion.
|
|
|
Post by Ozymandias on May 7, 2014 13:52:32 GMT -5
One could make the grand argument he came close with that Malice storyline (FF #280-281). I've always felt that was rather dreadfully overrated, and just because it was where Sue finally started referring to herself as the Invisible Woman instead of the Invisible Girl. It was certainly long overdue, but could have happened a bit earlier AND in a better manner. But *does her best Dennis Miller* that's just my opinion. I was meaning it literally. He saved that plot for Action Comics #593.
|
|
Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
Posts: 3,942
|
Post by Crimebuster on May 7, 2014 13:57:51 GMT -5
Speaking of those dumb sci-fi stories he did. Like the ones in the negative zone. I seem to remember Byrne saying he wrote them when he was a kid and had them stored or something. That would explain a lot. I think we should just be thankful that Byrne never did a story where Sue was hypnotized into making a porno movie.
Thanks, John!
Oh, I bet he did that story. He just never published it. That's his special, "for John only" story.
|
|
|
Post by Miss Fantastic on May 7, 2014 14:04:55 GMT -5
One could make the grand argument he came close with that Malice storyline (FF #280-281). I've always felt that was rather dreadfully overrated, and just because it was where Sue finally started referring to herself as the Invisible Woman instead of the Invisible Girl. It was certainly long overdue, but could have happened a bit earlier AND in a better manner. But *does her best Dennis Miller* that's just my opinion. I was meaning it literally. He saved that plot for Action Comics #593. *looks up the skinny (no pun intended) on Action Comics #593* LMAO!!! Of course, it's easy for me to do that because it very thankfully didn't involve Sue and the FF. But further proving how I'm evil and must be destroyed, I will definitely tuck my 'learn something new for today' in the back of my mind for my next time I rib my boyfriend about his DC fandom (he's to Batman and Superman what I am to the FF).
|
|
|
Post by Ish Kabbible on May 7, 2014 14:28:01 GMT -5
I'm probably in the minority here but I wound up really liking the Tom DeFalco/Paul Ryan run on The Fantastic Four.I liked the multiple subplots that were going on and reminded me how Marvel relied on a lot of soap opera and character developement in the 60s.Yes,the Johnny got the hots for Alicia came out of the blue but I wound up forgiving it and enjoyed the Lyja reveal
|
|
|
Post by Hoosier X on May 7, 2014 16:58:18 GMT -5
So I came up with my Top Five Dr. Doom storylines, but I extended it to Six because I couldn't bring myself to leave sentimental favorite Fantastic Four #6 off the list.
1. Fantastic Four #23 (February 1964) - "The Master Plan of Doctor Doom!" Dr. Doom recruits three roguish fellows - "Handsome" Harry Phillips, "Bull" Brogin and Yogi Dakor - to help him in his latest plot to dispose of The Fantastic Four. Doom's plan works without a hitch and the famous foursome are neutralized very effectively. Doom deposits them in a house that has been covered with some kind of astral particles that make it susceptible to dimensional waves (or something) and thus they are in grave danger of being dispatched to another dimension. Doom is defeated by the Invisible Girl because she has just manifested her forcefield powers and Doom didn't know about them.
Doctor Doom changed a lot in a very short time after he became the ruler of Latveria in the second Fantastic Four annual, and I've always loved this story as the best example of the early Doom. All he wants is revenge, and he is foiled only because of Sue's new powers. This is a bloodthirsty yet almost effective Doom, but he's still a relatively simple revenge-seeking mad scientist.
Another thing I love about this one is that it's in the middle of the run where George Roussos inked, #21 to #27, a bunch of really good issues in a row at a time when The Fantastic Four was still very much hit or miss. But that would change with #36. 2. Fantastic Four #57 - #60 (December 1966 - March 1967) - "The Peril and the Power!" Doctor Doom steals the Silver Surfer's Power Cosmic and threatens the world for four issues. The Inhumans guest star. Art by Jack Kirby and Joe Sinnott. I don't know what else to say about it.
The second Fantastic Four movie was loosely based on this storyline and it's a shame they botched it so badly that no one will ever think of adapting this ever again.
3. Fantastic Four #39 - #40 (June - July 1965) - "The Battle of the Baxter Building!" The Fantastic Four have lost their powers and Reed is desperately trying to come up with stopgap measures. Daredevil shows up to lend a hand when Doctor Doom takes over the Baxter Building. Reed feels he has no choice other than to turn Ben back into the Thing in order to defeat Doom, but the consequences of that choice will haunt them forever. (Well, for the next three issues.) Jack Kirby is inked by Frank Giacoia (with Wally Wood drawing Matt Murdock and Daredevil) in the first part. Kirby is inked by Vince Colletta in the second part and Collette rises to the occasion.
One of the things I like about this is, in a way, it's not really a Doctor Doom story! It just looks like one! It's actually the middle of a Frightful Four story that runs from FF #36 to #43. 4. Fantastic Four #84 - #87 (March - July 1969) - "Within This Tortured Land!" The Fantastic Four go to Latveria where they must fight Doctor Doom on his home ground. This is during the era when Crystal took Sue's place for a while (when Sue was pregnant and for a time after she had the baby) but in this story Sue shows up at the end and saves the day! Art by Jack Kirby and Joe Sinnott. And this is when Kirby was drawing a lot of full-page panels.
5. The Amazing Spider-Man #5 (October 1963) - "Marked for Destruction by Dr. Doom!" Peter Parker's life gets even more complicated when Doctor Doom comes up with a plan to use Spider-Man as a mere pawn in his latest vendetta against The Fantastic Four. But Doom's plan is foiled when, instead of abducting the real Spider-Man, he captures Flash Thompson dressed up as Spider-Man as part of a prank to scare Peter!
Steve Ditko provides the art on this one and boyoboy does he draw one bizarre-looking Doctor Doom! I wouldn't be surprised if he drew Doom based on an oral description somebody gave him over the phone. I love this one for being so whacky, but also for being the first time that Doom showed us all that he could make it outside of The Fantastic Four series where he originated.
6. Fantastic Four #6 (September 1962) - "Captives of the Deadly Duo!" Doctor Doom teams up with Namor for the first time (but not the last) and they launch the Baxter Building into space! Art by Jack Kirby and Dick Ayers!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 7, 2014 17:22:38 GMT -5
Just popping in to share some love for one of my favorite villains ever -- Dr. Doom! One of my favorite Dr. Doom stories is "This man... this demon!" from Marvel Super-Heroes #20. It introduces Valeria as his long lost love interest, and in turn displays something rarely seen by Doom up to this point...emotion. Classic stuff. Makes you wonder what might have been for ol' Victor. Then again, we all know what Dr. Doom's real love is...ultimate power!
|
|
|
Post by Hoosier X on May 7, 2014 17:31:20 GMT -5
Hey, Brian, you checked in just in time! I'm listing my Top Six Doctor Doom stories!
I read the story in Marvel Super-Heroes #20 years ago when it was reprinted in Giant-Size Super=Villain Team-Up, but it's been a while and I don't remember it so well.
Do you remember Super-Villain Team-Up? It was such a CRAZEE comic book! They would fight Attuma, the Avengers would show up, the Shroud would be hiding in the bushes, Doom would enslave Namor, Henry Kissinger would fly in for an issue. (That's not a joke!)
I've only read a few issues of the Doom series in Astonishing Tales. What I saw was very intriguing.
(But the real test: What do you think of Hero for Hire #9?)
|
|