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Post by coke & comics on May 8, 2014 20:12:54 GMT -5
So I came up with my Top Five Dr. Doom storylines, but I extended it to Six because I couldn't bring myself to leave sentimental favorite Fantastic Four #6 off the list.
1. Fantastic Four #23 (February 1964) - "The Master Plan of Doctor Doom!" Dr. Doom recruits three roguish fellows - "Handsome" Harry Phillips, "Bull" Brogin and Yogi Dakor - to help him in his latest plot to dispose of The Fantastic Four. Doom's plan works without a hitch and the famous foursome are neutralized very effectively. Doom deposits them in a house that has been covered with some kind of astral particles that make it susceptible to dimensional waves (or something) and thus they are in grave danger of being dispatched to another dimension. Doom is defeated by the Invisible Girl because she has just manifested her forcefield powers and Doom didn't know about them.
Doctor Doom changed a lot in a very short time after he became the ruler of Latveria in the second Fantastic Four annual, and I've always loved this story as the best example of the early Doom. All he wants is revenge, and he is foiled only because of Sue's new powers. This is a bloodthirsty yet almost effective Doom, but he's still a relatively simple revenge-seeking mad scientist.
Another thing I love about this one is that it's in the middle of the run where George Roussos inked, #21 to #27, a bunch of really good issues in a row at a time when The Fantastic Four was still very much hit or miss. But that would change with #36. 2. Fantastic Four #57 - #60 (December 1966 - March 1967) - "The Peril and the Power!" Doctor Doom steals the Silver Surfer's Power Cosmic and threatens the world for four issues. The Inhumans guest star. Art by Jack Kirby and Joe Sinnott. I don't know what else to say about it.
The second Fantastic Four movie was loosely based on this storyline and it's a shame they botched it so badly that no one will ever think of adapting this ever again.
3. Fantastic Four #39 - #40 (June - July 1965) - "The Battle of the Baxter Building!" The Fantastic Four have lost their powers and Reed is desperately trying to come up with stopgap measures. Daredevil shows up to lend a hand when Doctor Doom takes over the Baxter Building. Reed feels he has no choice other than to turn Ben back into the Thing in order to defeat Doom, but the consequences of that choice will haunt them forever. (Well, for the next three issues.) Jack Kirby is inked by Frank Giacoia (with Wally Wood drawing Matt Murdock and Daredevil) in the first part. Kirby is inked by Vince Colletta in the second part and Collette rises to the occasion.
One of the things I like about this is, in a way, it's not really a Doctor Doom story! It just looks like one! It's actually the middle of a Frightful Four story that runs from FF #36 to #43. 4. Fantastic Four #84 - #87 (March - July 1969) - "Within This Tortured Land!" The Fantastic Four go to Latveria where they must fight Doctor Doom on his home ground. This is during the era when Crystal took Sue's place for a while (when Sue was pregnant and for a time after she had the baby) but in this story Sue shows up at the end and saves the day! Art by Jack Kirby and Joe Sinnott. And this is when Kirby was drawing a lot of full-page panels.
5. The Amazing Spider-Man #5 (October 1963) - "Marked for Destruction by Dr. Doom!" Peter Parker's life gets even more complicated when Doctor Doom comes up with a plan to use Spider-Man as a mere pawn in his latest vendetta against The Fantastic Four. But Doom's plan is foiled when, instead of abducting the real Spider-Man, he captures Flash Thompson dressed up as Spider-Man as part of a prank to scare Peter!
Steve Ditko provides the art on this one and boyoboy does he draw one bizarre-looking Doctor Doom! I wouldn't be surprised if he drew Doom based on an oral description somebody gave him over the phone. I love this one for being so whacky, but also for being the first time that Doom showed us all that he could make it outside of The Fantastic Four series where he originated.
6. Fantastic Four #6 (September 1962) - "Captives of the Deadly Duo!" Doctor Doom teams up with Namor for the first time (but not the last) and they launch the Baxter Building into space! Art by Jack Kirby and Dick Ayers! Good list. Except that I've never cared for Amazing Spider-Man #5. My favorite Doom stories are mostly newer, I think. Here's a list I made once: 1. Doom vs. Magneto, from Super-Villain Team-Up #14, Champions #16 2. Dr. Strange/Dr. Doom, Triumph and Torment 3. Doom Surfer, from Fantastic Four #57-60 4. Though some call it magic, from Astonishing Tales #8 5. Origin of Dr. Doom and Final Victory of Dr. Doom, From Fantastic Four annual 2 6. The one where Rage hits Doom in the face with a cupcake, from Avengers #332-333 7. One Nation Under Doom, from Doom 2099 #28-35 8. Doom #1-3 (2000 miniseries by Dixon/Manco) 9. This land is mine, from Fantastic Four #246-247 10. Revolution, from Astonishing Tales #1-3 The Battle for the Baxter Building is an obvious omission. So pretend it's there at #6 or so.
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Post by Icctrombone on May 8, 2014 20:33:02 GMT -5
Not a bad list . I would include Ironman #149-150 as one of Dooms best stories.
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Post by Hoosier X on May 8, 2014 22:59:54 GMT -5
Good list. Except that I've never cared for Amazing Spider-Man #5. My favorite Doom stories are mostly newer, I think. Here's a list I made once: 1. Doom vs. Magneto, from Super-Villain Team-Up #14, Champions #16 2. Dr. Strange/Dr. Doom, Triumph and Torment 3. Doom Surfer, from Fantastic Four #57-60 4. Though some call it magic, from Astonishing Tales #8 5. Origin of Dr. Doom and Final Victory of Dr. Doom, From Fantastic Four annual 2 6. The one where Rage hits Doom in the face with a cupcake, from Avengers #332-333 7. One Nation Under Doom, from Doom 2099 #28-35 8. Doom #1-3 (2000 miniseries by Dixon/Manco) 9. This land is mine, from Fantastic Four #246-247 10. Revolution, from Astonishing Tales #1-3 The Battle for the Baxter Building is an obvious omission. So pretend it's there at #6 or so. There's a lot of good stuff on your list (and some stuff I've never read). I'm very pleased to see somebody else remembers SVTU #14 and Champions #16! I was thinking about some of Doom's best non-FF appearances and this is one I'd place highly. (Not as high as Spidey #5.)
And am I right about Fantastic Four #57 to #60? One of the highlights of the Silver Age.
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Post by Hoosier X on May 8, 2014 23:01:11 GMT -5
Not a bad list . I would include Ironman #149-150 as one of Dooms best stories. Here's another one I thought about as a notable non-FF appearance for Doc Doom.
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ironchimp
Full Member
Simian Overlord
Posts: 456
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Post by ironchimp on May 9, 2014 4:25:28 GMT -5
357 i think might have been the reveal and 358 the story of how OMG! So when did the Johnny/"Alicia" romance start? Wasn't it around #280? So Alicia was a prisoner of the Skrulls for 80 issues?!?
Even in Marvel-time, that's a year or two. Wow!
I really don't feel like I missed much by giving up on the FF by #295.
they get flirty around 270 and by 275 it's a done deal so at least 80 issues. alicia was kidnapped while the thing was away on his own after secret wars so that's a lot of issues.
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Post by The Man of Tomorrow on May 9, 2014 6:46:34 GMT -5
My first issue of FF was #280 and I ended up finally quitting around #311 or so, much later than I should have thrown in the towel. I like the FF as a team and as characters, but... I dunno. I've never really been able to get into them. I've read issues from all sorts of different creators, up through 1996 or so, and while some of them are good or even great, it's just not my thing I guess. Scott, you're killing me. Starting at 280 is like going to a disco in 1989. By that time, many of the great stories were told. I started around 112 and read the older issues in the Marvel Greatest Comics reprint book. Marvel's Greatest Comics was where I first saw the Fantastic Four in printed form (around 1976). However, the first time I actually saw them was during the late '60s on Sunday mornings (don't recall seeing it in first-run form on Saturdays). Also, around 1970, the first 10-piece+ puzzle I ever got featured them.
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Post by tolworthy on May 9, 2014 13:58:55 GMT -5
Since everyone is telling how they found the FF.. My first experience was with FF7 (planet X), in a large format hardbound British annual (Fleetway Marvel Annual 1973 I think, possible 1974). It was powerful, beautiful. Most people consider this a very weak story. I consider it one of the greatest stories of all time. I explain why on my web site. Maybe the difference is that I saw it in large scale black and white on thick paper in that magical book, and I read it slowly. After many other positive influences, the issue that made me want to own EVERY issue was a reprint of FF 171. Its all about time passing, but is packed with gorgeous ideas and images and characterisation and fun. Again, this is an issue that most people forget. We can see a pattern forming here I have always seen the FF as a single story that takes place in the real world. I don't find that is possible with other comics, except for the occasional short run of a few issues here and there. As a big story, I find the FF stands head and shoulders above all other comics. And as the biggest story ever told, it stands head and shoulders above all other literature (except perhaps the Bible: but my views on the Bible are equally unorthodox, as a glance at my web site will reveal: AnswersAnswers.com You think my views on the FF are "out there"? You ain't seen nothin' yet ) Miss F If you don't read very many comics (and it sounds like you may only read FF), you may not quite understand what a drag it is to see Doom so often. Exactly! That makes all the difference. When Doom appears in the FF something in appearance 1 always leads to appearance 2: everything matters. There is a character progression. But if Doom appears a hundred times in other comics, and writer B has obviously not read all the previous appearances, then nothing makes sense. That is why I see the FF differently to other people. I see it on its own. So if a character appears in another comic it might be real, might be fan fiction, but it's no a big deal. Maybe it's real, maybe it isn't. But by focusing just on the FF it's possible (and very rewarding) to see it as a rich and totally realistic single story. Every character is three dimensional and deeply interesting. They all grow and develop over the years, and everything they do matters both to the bigger story and to their own personal journey. But if I try to make sense of all the non-FF appearances as well, nothing makes sense. For me, "superhero comics" and the FF are two completely different things. That's why I feel like a fish out of water on most comic message boards. Superhero comics are supposed to be read quickly, with instant payback. But the FF is (to me) primarily a long and complex novel. If you read it as just a superhero comic then a lot of issues and characters will be disappointing. I can't blame anyone for saying "issue X is bad" if they read it that way. But if you read it as a novel (and treat other comics as trying to do something different) then every tiny detail of the FF becomes immensely important. Then every moment becomes exciting: the FF becomes the best superhero comic in the world, by a long way. In my opinion. Or at least, it was like that before the 1990s. The idea of comics as novels died in the "writers don't matter" era (the famous Image quote, post Shooter, when Marvel's owners wanted fast profits and nothing else). And now that stories are written for the trade, and read out of order, continuity is seen as a dirty word. But the first 27 years can be read as a single novel, and that changes everything. I guess Reed's leg looks weird because he could be stretching it like that (for whatever reason) but why is Sue's leg so messed up? And why is the Thing's head the size of a grapefruit?
(I couldn't resist making gratuitous remarks about the anatomy on that cover. It's Walt Simonson, isn't it? This cover reminds me why I was long gone from FF by #343.)
According to Simonson, the whole point of that cover was a parody of comics at the time: ridiculously big guns, mean Cable-like expressions, and bad anatomy. As for the head, bad artists make characters look stronger by making their heads smaller. It's called "shrunken head syndrome" and Simonson rightly mocks it. BTW this is a perfect example of the "comics versus the FF" thing. If read as a comic, this cover is bad. But if we look below the surface it's all kinds of awesome. One of my great pleasures is taking what seem like the very worst stories, and seeing how they can possible make sense. It always reveals patterns and connections that create whole new stories: layers and layers of depth, I love it! Whether it's planet X or Tomazooma or Reed fighting in World War II, the stuff that other people try to forget is the stuff I feast on. Take Maleria for example... I can totally see why the demon spawn is hated. She ruins one of the greatest stories ever, she makes no sense, she is totally irritating whenever she appears... on the surface she is possibly The Worst Character Ever. And yet... if we choose to see the whole story as a consistent whole then we have to deal with her. It is like the world's greatest riddle: the more difficult the riddle, the more interesting it is to solve. Maleria is possibly the hardest riddle of all, because most of her story is from the post-continuity era, when making sense of ANYTHING is a major task. But the more I dig, the more interesting she becomes to me. a highly unnecessary character I think Miss Fantastic hit the nail on the head: on the surface Valeria is hugely unnecessary. Why does she exist, other than to make everything she touches worse? What does she add to the FF? If we can answer that then we can start to make progress. As I see it, Valeria is essential to the bigger story moving forwards, for several reasons:
- She forces us to look deeper: how can a character be so bad? What is really going on? Without Valeria we can maybe overlook the bad stuff in the post-continuity FF. But Valeria is so bad that is no longer an option. BEing forced to ask questions is a good thing.
- Her (non-)birth was essential to the Reed and Sue's character arc. The family had to suffer everything: loss of home, confidence, purpose, being dragged through hell, et., and for a family drama losing a child was the worst thing that could happen.
- Everything depends on Franklin. Franklin controls everything. The only way for the story to move forwards is for him to no longer be so mentally messed up. He needs a friend. Maleria is that friend. It is no coincidence that Mal is by his side in FF600, where he finally finds peace. She did it. Throughout the FF it is always the women who are the real power. E.g. the problems are never solved by violence, but by Sue making friends; Galactus was not defeated by the FF but by Alicia, through touching the heart of the surfer and thus Galactus' heart was no longer in the battle, and so on. Throughout history women have always been treated as flawed and weak, yet have quietly been the creators of everything, and Valeria is the ultimate example of this.
- She unites the team with Doom. The enmity between Reed and Doom is the central symbol of the whole multi year story. Doom is Reed's mirror. Eventually they must make peace, and Valeria is the key. She links them together Doom'Reed is her father: we saw the start of this in Claremont's run, and it continues now, though as with all continuity post 1988 it is painfully slow and takes effort to decipher)
In this light all the bad stuff actually strengthens the bigger story: - Val's crazy rebirth is the great turning point in Franklin's life: he decides to consciously start fixing things. Before that point all his actions were unconscious (e.g. FF150), not powered at all (I have a long discussion of FF322 in the notes to FF269), guided by Reed (FF245), or short term panics (annual 14). The rebirth was just proof of concept: he did not gain the confidence to do it properly and consistently until the climax in FF600).
- Val's irritating and impossible super intellect is because she has part of Doom inside her, and the spirit of Doom's old love Valeria, plus she's a split person - one girl with two brains, two minds, shared in a dream state, simultaneously being brought up in two dimensions (she grows up until age 14 under the care of Roma and Doom-Reed).
- The loss in FF 267 becomes even more tragic in a Shakespearian sense. The whole point of tragedy is it is caused by a hero's flaw. It is usually made worse by misunderstanding. See the greatest tragedies of all: Hamlet, Othello, Romeo and Juliet, etc. The tragedy of FF 267 is foreshadowed in the great half way story, FF 155-157: The Surfer's tragedy is made WORSE because not only has he lost Shalla Bal, but unknown to him she is still here. Tragedy is not the same as bad luck. To lose a baby due to bad luck is sad. But sad things happen, and the true hero accepts it and moves on. But tragedy is different. In tragedy it is your fault and you deep down know it, but feel trapped, you cannot escape your fate because despite being a hero in every other sense you are unable to fix that one weakness, and everyone who knows you you suffers as a result. The guilt and ignorance and feeling of being trapped is what twists the knife: that is torment of the highest order! If only Othello had not been so quick to judge! If only Romeo had waited! If only Reed had paid more attention to his first child! Yet the hero cannot see it: they suffer exquisite pain because there is the niggling feeling that they have failed somehow, but they do not know how. Only the audience can see the bigger picture. (And as for reuniting eventually, that is the point of life after death, a point taken for granted in Greek and Shakespearian tragedy). FF 267, when we add Valeria, is true tragedy in the literary sense. And the fact that all readers hate Valeria for weaknesses that are not her fault, that she does not herself understand, well that is tragedy again. It's rich and powerful and delicious stuff IMO.
As to whether any of this makes sense, I argue that it is all foreshadowed before FF 267 (see my web site's notes on that issue, just added): it is not a retcon, but there from the start: it was essential that Val be conceived in subspace (the neg zone is the pace between other dimensions - see FF 51) to allow her to span dimensions like Franklin. And it was inevitable that Franklin would remove the new baby that terrified him, switching her to a safe place somewhere else. All the crazy stuff makes sense IMO. On the other hand, as the only person who thinks this way I suppose I am insane by definition.
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Post by Hoosier X on May 9, 2014 15:11:45 GMT -5
I love FF #7 and Toomazooma. (Of course, that doesn't mean that I don't realize that they are both as goofy as hell.)
That is very interesting about the cover to FF #343 being a parody. I totally missed that. I wasn't completely out of the comic-collecting hobby at that point, but I wasn't reading much in the way of super-heroes.
There are runs I like better than any segments of the FF, like the Lee/Ditko Spider-Man, but I don't think anything works in the long run as well as the Fantastic Four. FF up to #200 is just ... FANTASTIC! And with a few reservations about some of the missteps during the Byrne years, I would be willing to extend that up to #300.
It's great to have you here at CCF! I've spent a lot of time at your Great American Novel site and found it helpful in helping me fill in the gaps on all the issues I missed, although I admit that a lot of it doesn't really stick because I can't get too enthusiastic about Skrull-Wife or Maleria.
How do you feel about the Future Foundation? I read issues #2 to #4 of the Fraction/Allred FF series (with Ant-Man, SHe-Hulk (The Jen!), Medusa and Darla Deering) and I really liked it! I would have liked to keep reading but I had financial problems last year. It was the first time I cared about The Fantastic Four since the Byrne years.
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Post by Ozymandias on May 9, 2014 15:18:34 GMT -5
Or at least, it was like that before the 1990s. The idea of comics as novels died in the "writers don't matter" era (the famous Image quote, post Shooter, when Marvel's owners wanted fast profits and nothing else). And now that stories are written for the trade, and read out of order, continuity is seen as a dirty word. But the first 27 years can be read as a single novel, and that changes everything. I agree, both with the take on continuity, and the management over at Marvel. I was referred to your site by one of the CBR admins, and the graph about the "rise and fall of the Marvel Universe", has been sitting on my desktop ever since. After reading (n the last year) every Spider-Man comic from that time period, as well as 500 more from the past 25 years, I miss continuity.
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Post by tolworthy on May 9, 2014 15:32:10 GMT -5
I love FF #7 and Toomazooma. (Of course, that doesn't mean that I don't realize that they are both as goofy as hell.) That is very interesting about the cover to FF #343 being a parody. I totally missed that. I wasn't completely out of the comic-collecting hobby at that point, but I wasn't reading much in the way of super-heroes. There are runs I like better than any segments of the FF, like the Lee/Ditko Spider-Man, but I don't think anything works in the long run as well as the Fantastic Four. FF up to #200 is just ... FANTASTIC! And with a few reservations about some of the missteps during the Byrne years, I would be willing to extend that up to #300. It's great to have you here at CCF! I've spent a lot of time at your Great American Novel site and found it helpful in helping me fill in the gaps on all the issues I missed, although I admit that a lot of it doesn't really stick because I can't get too enthusiastic about Skrull-Wife or Maleria. How do you feel about the Future Foundation? I read issues #2 to #4 of the Fraction/Allred FF series (with Ant-Man, SHe-Hulk (The Jen!), Medusa and Darla Deering) and I really liked it! I would have liked to keep reading but I had financial problems last year. It was the first time I cared about The Fantastic Four since the Byrne years. Thanks! I love Ditko Spider-Man too. I like the theory that Spidey 36 is the natural climax, and after that Ditko planned for him to grow up and stop being such an idiot. That would be consistent with Ditko's other comics. As Ditko said, it's OK for a teenager to make bonehead mistakes, but an adult is expected to learn from his mistakes. I don't know if such a Spidey would be fun to read, but the present Spidey alienates me, because he makes his own problems and never learns. Regarding the Future Foundation, I didn't read that title so can't really comment,. I find it hard enough to keep up with the first 300 or so issues! Judging from a distance and I could be wrong) I think it can only be exciting if the kids get some personality and start running off to do their own things. Otherwise it's dull as dishwater, and a bit troublesome - it's elitism for its own sake (the elites looking after the elites) Plus if the presence of Franklin is an awkward reminder of the worst problems of Marvel Time then I'm not sure what a whole class of kids means. I do like the idea of involving lots of interesting people, though it was quite a feat to make even Dragon Man boring. But I can't pretend to have followed it closely. Whenever I see Reed and Sue standing around as teachers I fall asleep so I probably missed something. Regarding Skrull Alicia, I note that the real Alicia continued to create human statues, whereas Skrull Alicia said she found that impossible. This is one of many evidences that we have a completely different team of characters after Englehart: zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/ff-different.htmlPossibly we are following the clone team after FF322: FF322 could allow for either possibility. SO my interest level sort of plummets at that point. Of course, in the Franklinverse all the parallel realities overlap (i.e continuity is crazy), so I still read the later issues, but find them a lot of work for often very little reward. Completely agree with the 200-300 thing. A very good argument can be made for the FF finishing with 300: see the last panel about Doom's statue crumbling, how Reed expected the team to disband, how the Mole Man's story was wrapped up at the same time (in the annual), how the readers reacted, etc. but I really, really want to find out "what happens next" and some interesting stuff did happen even thought it was seldom what I wanted. But yes, the further we go after 2300 the harder it gets. I go with 321 as the final continuity issue mainly because Englehart said so, but also because lots of other reasons coincide at that point. Such as, it's the first complete break with realism (no attempt at plausible deniability), plus 322-326 is where all this crazy dimension hopping begins: since then the team routinely mix with parallel versions of themselves so who knows what team we're following. Et., etc. But if we ignore all the deep analysis, 20 is the more natural break. Loved that issue. Such a sudden and obvious drop of quality and lack of direction in the next issues.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2014 16:00:06 GMT -5
Delighted to see you here, tolworthy!
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Post by tolworthy on May 10, 2014 13:08:34 GMT -5
Glad to be back, Dan Bitu!
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Post by Hoosier X on May 11, 2014 23:48:34 GMT -5
Speaking of Dr. Doom in non-FF situations ...
I had totally forgotten about Spider-Man Annual #14 but I came across it (along with Spidey Annual #13 and #15) a few days ago, and I gave it a read and it's a perfect example of Dr. Doom being over-used and ending up in a not-so-bad story that just dilutes his effectiveness with a scheme that doesn't advance his character and you can't really see why he was involved in the plot to begin with.
It's got Spidey, Dr. Doom, Dormammu, Dr. Strange and poor Debra Whitman. The bad guys are trying to summon the Bend Sinister, that will bring about an Age of Evil on Earth. Every once in a while, the story flow is interrupted by some very bad blank verse about prophesies and the Reign of Evil, and it's supposed to be from the Book of the Vishanti as translated by Stephen Strange. Dr. Strange is subdued pretty quickly, leaving most of the heavy-lifting to Spidey.
It was pleasant enough for a summer afternoon's reading, and I don't remember particularly disliking it in 1980. But I wasn't too keen on it when I read it a few days ago. It's written by Dennis O'Neil, and it's a perfect reminder of just how mediocre O'Neil could be. He's no Bob Haney, that's for sure.
The art is by Frank Miller, inked by Tom Palmer. It's very nice, and it's probably why I have fond though vague memories of this book.
And Dr. Doom is just wasted here. He only appears on a few pages, and I really fail to see why he was interested in unleashing the Bend Sinister in the first place.
Maybe it was a wayward Doombot? Yeah! A Doombot! That won't make it sound like a like a lazy contrivance! Not at all.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2014 20:38:01 GMT -5
Tolworthy, I have read through your FF site a few times now and I really enjoy it.
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Post by Hoosier X on May 15, 2014 15:53:28 GMT -5
I have to return Essential FF, Vol. 6, to the library tomorrow, so I thought I'd single out my favorite issue from this run (FF #111 to #137) and maybe open up some discussion on the Buscema era of Fantastic Four.
It was harder than I thought, but glancing through the volume, I've narrowed it down to #111 (The Thing goes berserk!), #112 (The Hulk fights the berserk Thing), #121 (the truth about Gabriel), #123 (Reed takes over Galactus' ship), #129 (first Thundra), #130 (The Frightful Four take over the Baxter Building) and #133 (The Thing fights Thundra at Shea Stadium).
So that's seven issues to read a little more carefully before I make my decision later tonight. (The Pacers are playing, so that will slow me down a little.)
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