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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2014 23:50:22 GMT -5
I can definitely understand wanting a Fantastic Four title (even if it isn't called Fantastic Four) to be about Reed, Johnny, Ben and Sue.
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Post by Hoosier X on May 6, 2014 23:57:31 GMT -5
Well, I liked Darla Deering and the Future Foundation. What can I say? There was just this weird energy to those issues that I found compelling. (Keep in mind that I haven't read FF regularly since #300 or so, though I did pick up a few of the issues from the era when Ben was a starfish and also Sharon Ventura was the She-Thing (although her code name was Ms. Marvel). And I also had a few issues when Art Adams was the artist and the line-up was (for some reason) gray Hulk, Ghost Rider, Wolverine and Spider-Man.)
So, I guess I'm saying I haven't cared too much about the regular members of the FF since #300. I think the Johnny Storm/Alicia Masters marriage rubbed me the wrong way and then she turned out to be a Skrull (which meant Alicia had been a prisoner of the Skrulls for months) and then Valeria ... I don't even know who Valeria is.
So, yeah, I tried, but I could never get interested in the FF again.
The Allred FF is the first time I've cared about anything to do with the FF for years! It was kind of nice! I think I'll see if I can find those issues and read them over the next few days. They're around here somewhere ...
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Post by Miss Fantastic on May 7, 2014 1:20:00 GMT -5
...and then Valeria ... I don't even know who Valeria is. Valeria Richards is Reed and Sue's very ill-gotten daughter. And is one of two ill-conceived-by-Chris Claremont supporting characters who were not only among the blatant attempts at trying to give Fantastic Four more of an X-flavor, but also ended up somehow having a ridiculous longevity beyond the Claremont run (FF #'s 4-34, Vol. 3). The other character was/is Alyssa Moy, but I am almost, ALMOST willing to forgive her presence because it was actually utilized rather harmlessly in FF: Season One (still am astounded at how much I actually liked that when I got and read it last year)...although I still am of the opinion that Sue is and has always been Reed's only true sweetheart. But back to Val-Ware...I call her that (or Maleria) and have held a great disdain for her ever since her first appearance because she has always been a highly unnecessary character, a big time unlikable brat (especially since the Mark Millar crapfest...more in a moment), and has proceeded to commit not one but two rather grandiose FF crimes. One, her re-conception (done by Franklin to Sue during Carlos Pacheco's run (FF #'s 35-49, Vol. 3) because he decided he wanted a sibling, which even though it was via his mind and godlike powers, still is pretty downright creepy ) and birth (in FF #54, Vol. 3) undermined one of the greatest sad FF stories, if not THE GREATEST sad FF story ever penned in FF #267. It was such a tear jerker that Byrne himself said he couldn't help but shed a tear or two when glancing over the final product and especially that page. And two, Valeria's becoming the smartest person in the Marvel Universe over her supposed* old man, with nary any experience or education to explain everything she knows...it all just happens literally overnight. That malarkey was and is nothing but good old classic Mark Millar tripe at its utmost apex. The reversal of that is one retcon I would GLADLY welcome. The only thing that keeps Millar's run from being THE WORST EVER was that Fraction's run garnered the worst sales in the Fantastic Four title's history while Millar's somehow, someway stayed in the then usual twentysomething-thirtysomething rankings. Anyways, in lieu of Slam's wonderful review of FF #4, Vol. 1...here's a neat little curiosity that focuses on that very issue. And yes, that is a certain Bill Murray doing the voice of Johnny Storm. * - I have a theory I've been developing for awhile that Valeria's father is not Reed, but actually Doom. Who says that Victor couldn't have, through his sorcery, planted a suggestion in Franklin's head about wanting a sister, and in turn planted his 'seed' through combining his enchantment with Franklin's deux ex machina abilities? As *does her best Ernest P. Worrell* ewwwwwww(!!) as that may sound, it's not anymore worst than what already actually happened with Valeria's reconception, and it would certainly explain A LOT as to why Valeria has such a fixation with Doom to the point of calling him her uncle and always tries to hang out with him when she can (and Vic's being completely alright with that), as well as her thoroughly snotty attitude towards her parents and family/team. Oh, and that overnight 'superior genius' could be explained with this too...who says that too wasn't a magickal enhancement and part of Victor's grand plan to play that much more with his sworn enemy's head? Doom did deliver Valeria in FF #54, Vol. 3, naturally via mystical means, and complete with practically 'forcing' the Richards to name her Valeria (after the one love Doom once had in his life)...which, in my admittingly overthinking head, reeks to me of a spell completion. I would LOVE it if a writer ever explored my theory. But even if it remains pure speculation, hmmmmm... Edited to add to spare a double post: As I did in the 'just purchased classic comics' thread, I am ecstatic to announce that as of tonight, FF #34 no longer holds the mantle of being my oldest owned genuine/non-reprint FF issue.
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Post by Jesse on May 7, 2014 6:44:11 GMT -5
I got into the Fantastic Four probably much later than most during Walter Simonson's run. In fact this was that first issue which I still own today.
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Post by Hoosier X on May 7, 2014 10:19:54 GMT -5
Miss F
Congratulations on getting the FF Annual #1. I've never owned the original, but I've had at least 3 different reprints and it's one of the very best Sub-Mariner issues.
As for Valeria ... that sounds kind of familiar. I think I must have read it online somewhere at some point and have thankfully managed to block it out. That's the kind of convoluted nonsense (like Gwen Stacy having babies with Norman Osborne) that completely drives me away from some of my old favorites.
Also, I know all about the original Valeria! She was in a couple of issues of the Hulk, #143 and #144 (I think) and I used to have one of those issues in the late 1970s. Great Dick Ayers/John Severin art.
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Post by Hoosier X on May 7, 2014 10:26:53 GMT -5
I got into the Fantastic Four probably much later than most during Walter Simonson's run. In fact this was that first issue which I still own today. I guess Reed's leg looks weird because he could be stretching it like that (for whatever reason) but why is Sue's leg so messed up? And why is the Thing's head the size of a grapefruit?
(I couldn't resist making gratuitous remarks about the anatomy on that cover. It's Walt Simonson, isn't it? This cover reminds me why I was long gone from FF by #343.)
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Post by Miss Fantastic on May 7, 2014 11:54:24 GMT -5
Miss F Congratulations on getting the FF Annual #1. I've never owned the original, but I've had at least 3 different reprints and it's one of the very best Sub-Mariner issues. Merci beaucoup, Hoosier! Almost twelve hours later, and I'm still JAZZED and can't believe my immense luck in finding that thing at such a GREAT price and not bad at all condition. And it certainly is an outstanding story too...back when Annual stories were definitely worth reading. Scary how, with an exception here there, such stories/issues quickly fell by the wayside during the 70's. IMO, the last truly awesome FF Annual story was #17, alias the infamous Skrull milk one where the FF discover the repercussions of how they dealt with their Skrull impostors way, WAY back in FF #2, Vol. 1. Pretty downright creative use by Byrne of smallish and 'campy story' details that usually tend to be forgotten overtime. A lot of people say that the 1998 FF Annual was the last great annual, and I thought that was an interesting and well written story...but it doesn't beat #17. I got into the Fantastic Four probably much later than most during Walter Simonson's run. In fact this was that first issue which I still own today. I guess Reed's leg looks weird because he could be stretching it like that (for whatever reason) but why is Sue's leg so messed up? And why is the Thing's head the size of a grapefruit?
(I couldn't resist making gratuitous remarks about the anatomy on that cover. It's Walt Simonson, isn't it? This cover reminds me why I was long gone from FF by #343.)
I've always been give or take about Simonson's run...lately and over the last year leaning more towards give than take. The one exception to that is FF #352, which not only gave us a kicka** Reed solo cover (and by default, Simonson's best FF art, IMO), but also a ridiculously fun Reed/Doom battle royale that's actually in my personal top three of such things, despite the Time Variance Authority doing their darndest to hamper it.
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Post by Hoosier X on May 7, 2014 12:27:01 GMT -5
I've always been give or take about Simonson's run...lately and over the last year leaning more towards give than take. The one exception to that is FF #352, which not only gave us a kicka** Reed solo cover (and by default, Simonson's best FF art, IMO), but also a ridiculously fun Reed/Doom battle royale that's actually in my personal top three of such things, despite the Time Variance Authority doing their darndest to hamper it. Here's another reason why I quit reading FF: Doctor Doom!
It boils down to this: They use Doom too much and the Byrne version got on my nerves after a while.
And the FF rogues gallery suffers a lot from not really having very many A-listers. When you're tired of Doom (like I was), there are still some good villains, like Diablo and the Puppet-Master and the Mole Man, but they all lack the charisma of Doom at his best or Sinestro or the Joker or any number of Spider-Man villains. You'll get tired of guys like the Mole Man pretty quickly if you try to rely on them for story ideas.
(And Galactus is another great idea for a character who, I think, doesn't work if he's used too much.)
Doctor Doom shouldn't come off as incompetent. Yes, he does have to lose, but it should be a hard-fought battle every time (which is why he works so well in multi-part stories like FF #57 to #60, #84 to #86, #142 to #144 and #156 to #158). And when he loses as often as he must (especially considering how overworked he is by appearing in just about every Marvel series at some point), he comes off as incompetent. (For similar reasons, I groan every time I see Ra's al Ghul. The last time I liked Ra's was in an early 1980s Batman Annual.)
(It's a bit different for someone like The Joker. He gets overused, sure, but I don't think it hurts the character. He just wants to cause chaos and match wits with the Batman. Even when he loses, he accomplishes his mission.)
And the way Byrne used Doom ... Gah! The incident where Doom destroyed the Doombot because it had let Arcade (a terrible, terrible villain who should have never shared the stage with Doom) light a match on his armor, that was just dumb. Byrne just should have ignored instead of taking up story space to rebuke some bad writing by somebody else.
(Although I did like the Doom story where he fought Terrax. And then, the storyline with Stephan (I think that was his name), who I called Baby Doom, I liked that. Where he repeated the scheme from FF #6? That was a fun issue.)
And don't get me started on the Doombots in general!
I may be over my Doomophobia though. I read the recent Daredevil series for a while, and it had a Doom storyline that I liked.
(Extra added bonus! Here's my write-up of Hero for Hire #9. Now, THAT'S a Doctor Doom story!)
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Post by Hoosier X on May 7, 2014 12:33:41 GMT -5
Miss F
I hope you understand that I'm not dissing FF #352. It may be the best Doom ever. I never read it. I was way tired of Doom by then. (And I had been reading comics for a long time by then.)
If you don't read very many comics (and it sounds like you may only read FF), you may not quit understand what a drag it is to see Doom so often. Even if most of them are good stories, he just loses too often and comes off as an ineffectual villain (to me anyway). And that whole "diplomatic immunity because Latveria" thing probably seemed pretty clever in the 1960s but it had worn thin by the 1990s.
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Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
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Post by Crimebuster on May 7, 2014 12:49:53 GMT -5
I don't want to seem like I'm piling on, because I think this thread is great. But it makes me feel like I should enjoy it a lot more than I do. So I also have been examining why I never got into FF, and I think I finally figured it out: Franklin Richards.
I don't mind the character, really, though I rarely want to read anything in superhero comics about kids. I just usually find those kinds of stories annoying, whether it's the whole "Cyclops' baby" thing in X-Factor or whatever. I just find those stories and characters to usually be irritating.
But in this case, the problem isn't with Franklin himself, it's with the advent of the "illusion of change" in Marvel Comics.
For the first several years of Marvel's history, things actually happened, which is one reason the company was so innovative and vibrant. in ASM, Peter got older, time passed, he graduated high school and went to college. in FF, Reed and Sue got married, she got pregnant, she had a kid. Things changed.
But then they froze everything, drastically slowing down the passage of time to the point of complete stasis. And I think FF was maybe the most affected by this, because it stuck Franklin at toddler age and therefore saddled thebook with a literally never ending series of stories about or featuring a four year old.
And the hoops writers have tried to jump through to get around this, like aging him up via time travel or whatever, end up being even worse.
Four year olds just aren't interesting. Ask anyone who has a Facebook feed how much they enjoy their friends constantly posting idiotic stories about whatever "cute" thing their toddler just did. It's maybe the most irritating thing in the world, and thanks to editorial policy, FF was basically that annoying parent posting about their kid for 30 straight years.
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Post by Hoosier X on May 7, 2014 13:01:53 GMT -5
I don't want to seem like I'm piling on, because I think this thread is great. But it makes me feel like I should enjoy it a lot more than I do. So I also have been examining why I never got into FF, and I think I finally figured it out: Franklin Richards. I don't mind the character, really, though I rarely want to read anything in superhero comics about kids. I just usually find those kinds of stories annoying, whether it's the whole "Cyclops' baby" thing in X-Factor or whatever. I just find those stories and characters to usually be irritating. But in this case, the problem isn't with Franklin himself, it's with the advent of the "illusion of change" in Marvel Comics. For the first several years of Marvel's history, things actually happened, which is one reason the company was so innovative and vibrant. in ASM, Peter got older, time passed, he graduated high school and went to college. in FF, Reed and Sue got married, she got pregnant, she had a kid. Things changed. But then they froze everything, drastically slowing down the passage of time to the point of complete stasis. And I think FF was maybe the most affected by this, because it stuck Franklin at toddler age and therefore saddled thebook with a literally never ending series of stories about or featuring a four year old. And the hoops writers have tried to jump through to get around this, like aging him up via time travel or whatever, end up being even worse. Four year olds just aren't interesting. Ask anyone who has a Facebook feed how much they enjoy their friends constantly posting idiotic stories about whatever "cute" thing their toddler just did. It's maybe the most irritating thing in the world, and thanks to editorial policy, FF was basically that annoying parent posting about their kid for 30 straight years. Yeah, I think I handled this by ignoring Franklin as much as possible. (And as often as he was left to the tender care of Agatha Harkness, it wasn't hard to ignore Franklin when he wasn't needed for a plot development.) I think he got up to about age 7 or 8 in the early 1980s. And then Byrne reverted him back to about 3. Big mistake. But hardly the worst thing Byrne did to the FF.
You're not "piling on." Franklin is problematic. And my strategy of ignoring Franklin got harder and harder.
Scott, you mentioned earlier that you did read earlier FF and didn't like it. I've been wondering which issues you're familiar with, especially since you know enough about it to mention the problem of Franklin. How do you feel about pre-Franklin FF?
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Post by Miss Fantastic on May 7, 2014 13:06:44 GMT -5
Here's another reason why I quit reading FF: Doctor Doom!
It boils down to this: They use Doom too much and the Byrne version got on my nerves after a while.
And the FF rogues gallery suffers a lot from not really having very many A-listers. When you're tired of Doom (like I was), there are still some good villains, like Diablo and the Puppet-Master and the Mole Man, but they all lack the charisma of Doom at his best or Sinestro or the Joker or any number of Spider-Man villains. You'll get tired of guys like the Mole Man pretty quickly if you try to rely on them for story ideas.
(And Galactus is another great idea for a character who, I think, doesn't work if he's used too much.)
Doctor Doom shouldn't come off as incompetent. Yes, he does have to lose, but it should be a hard-fought battle every time (which is why he works so well in multi-part stories like FF #57 to #60, #84 to #86, #142 to #144 and #156 to #158). And when he loses as often as he must (especially considering how overworked he is by appearing in just about every Marvel series at some point), he comes off as incompetent. (For similar reasons, I groan every time I see Ra's al Ghul. The last time I liked Ra's was in an early 1980s Batman Annual.)
(It's a bit different for someone like The Joker. He gets overused, sure, but I don't think it hurts the character. He just wants to cause chaos and match wits with the Batman. Even when he loses, he accomplishes his mission.)
And the way Byrne used Doom ... Gah! The incident where Doom destroyed the Doombot because it had let Arcade (a terrible, terrible villain who should have never shared the stage with Doom) light a match on his armor, that was just dumb. Byrne just should have ignored instead of taking up story space to rebuke some bad writing by somebody else.
(Although I did like the Doom story where he fought Terrax. And then, the storyline with Stephan (I think that was his name), who I called Baby Doom, I liked that. Where he repeated the scheme from FF #6? That was a fun issue.)
And don't get me started on the Doombots in general!
I may be over my Doomophobia though. I read the recent Daredevil series for a while, and it had a Doom storyline that I liked.
(Extra added bonus! Here's my write-up of Hero for Hire #9. Now, THAT'S a Doctor Doom story!)
Believe it or not, I don't completely disagree with you, Hoosier, other than about Byrne's Doom, at least the one of FF #232-258 (or more specifically, just FF #236, 246-247, and 258). Lemme explain...I like the Victor of those issues and the fact that Byrne gave Doom a loose grey area coat of paint in the form of a developing 'nobility'. But boy do I mean loose, because Doom definitely still retained his lunatic "DOOM MUST OBLITERATE REED RICHARDS AND/OR THE FANTASTIC FOUR! colors at times, especially in FF #236. And it's funny I say that, because the I personally think the 'nobility' schtick was needed and welcome for Doom with the whole megalomaniacal thing finally being played out at that point. At least the megalomaniac Victor was given a thoroughly AMAZING story as his last hurrah for the time (if not ever in a way) with FF #191-200 (technically #201, but Doom's part ended in #200), which is my numero uno for the BEST Reed/Doom rivalry (my personal most favorite in all of the Marvel Universe) story and GRANDEST staged fight between the two EVER. And that said, I cannot recommend the Overthrow of Doom TPB enough for anyone interested...one of THE reasons I regard Marv Wolfman's creative run to be the third best in FF history. But going back to Doom's 'over-exposure' and really more-so just simply poor handling through the last couple of decades or so...as I sit here thinking about this, it dawns on me that what I consider to be the four last most fantastic Victor utilizations are pretty well spaced out from one another... FF Special #1 - 2006 (IMO, the last truly GREAT FF and Reed/Doom story EVER thus far. Dwayne McDuffie should have had a more lengthy FF creative run than he did...bless him. ) FF #352 - 1991 (Already fifteen years apart.) FF vs. X-Men - 1987 (My personal most favorite FF limited ever, as well as Chris Claremont's best FF story by default (and thanks to how he had the X-Men to help tell it), and IMO the best use of Franklin outside of FF #245.) FF #236, 246-247, and 258 - 1981-83 (Grouping all of those into one clump because they are all very indicative of how the first half of Byrne's run was SIMPLY THE BEST, like it or not. The later half stories certainly weren't terrible, but they suffered heavily from Byrne feeling like there needed to be some major shakeups (Ben leaving the FF/She-Hulk replacing him, the Richards trying to have a 'normal life' in Connecticut, Alicia inexplicably leaving Ben for Johnny, and bringing this back around to Doom, Kristoff Vernard 'replacing' him), and his also being stretched thin between FF, the The Thing spinoff, and Alpha Flight. If I was to take any part of Byrne's FF run with me to a desert island, it would be FF #232-256 without any hesitance what-so-ever.) So in the end, no, I don't disagree that Victor has been overexposed and/or especially terribly used a fair bit over relatively recent years. Just be careful of saying that around his more adamant fans (and I can attest that Doom definitely has them).
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Post by Hoosier X on May 7, 2014 13:24:23 GMT -5
I forgot to mention FF #236. It's just about perfect. It's one of those issues from Byrne's run that almost makes it possible to forgive Byrne for some of his disastrous decisions.
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Post by Ozymandias on May 7, 2014 13:26:25 GMT -5
I forgot to mention FF #236. It's just about perfect. It's one of those issues from Byrne's run that almost makes it possible to forgive Byrne for some of his disastrous decisions. Byrne's run was very long. There were bad things and good things. Just keep the good.
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Post by Hoosier X on May 7, 2014 13:27:22 GMT -5
I should make a "Five Best Doom Appearances" list soon. It would be heavily biased toward Lee and Kirby. I'm not sure FF #236 would be on it. (But Amazing Spider-Man #5 will be there.)
I'll mull it over while I'm walking the dogs.
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