shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Oct 29, 2022 14:07:49 GMT -5
That's not really the same question as what you asked. Do you want us to rate The Dark Phoenix Saga on its own merit or compare just the final chapter to what else was on the market in the same month in which it was published? Your OP implied the former. I can’t really answer it well because it’s apples and oranges. As regards those other comics on sale that month, I believe it’d be futile to compare that month’s MAN-THING and SUPER SPIDEY STORIES with “The Dark Phoenix Saga”. I can only reall think about how I feel about that saga on its own merits. I may not have even read most of those other comics on sale that month. I prefer Gerber's Man-Thing to the bulk of The Dark Phoenix Saga, but I probably wouldn't choose it over #137, specifically. Thus part of my difficulty with what is being asked.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Oct 29, 2022 14:11:11 GMT -5
Y’all are bashing Dark Phoenix and saying there’s better X-Men storylines, but aren’t stating what those better storylines are. So, what are the better storylines in X-Men that beat Dark Phoenix? Not the big-name crossovers, if that's what you mean. I don't think Claremont truly finds his center for the team until they are left grieving for Jean. I'd say probably #139 thru about #186 is X-Men at their absolute perfection, and that's where the Dark Phoenix saga gains a weight and meaning that, perhaps, it didn't have while it was still in progress.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 29, 2022 15:51:31 GMT -5
I gave it a 6. But it’s somewhere in the 5-7 range depending on how I’m feeling on a given day. Usually on the low side of those numbers.
And I say that with me being at a point where I find Claremont’s work nearly unreadable. I honestly suspect that my rating is buoyed by the fact that I haven’t read it in probably 20 years.
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Post by tarkintino on Oct 29, 2022 16:05:11 GMT -5
I gave it a "1". At the time, I thought it was astoundingly overrated, and not the "epic" some were claiming it to be. I've never revisited the issues since their original publication.
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Post by Ozymandias on Oct 29, 2022 16:10:47 GMT -5
For me, a "1" would be a comic done by someone with no training, no talent and no previous experience.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Oct 29, 2022 16:28:32 GMT -5
For me, a "1" would be a comic done by someone with no training, no talent and no previous experience. To be fair, Claremont had very little training and previous experience at this point. He was a former assistant editor thrown into a dream gig and learning as he went. Talent he had in spades, of course.
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 29, 2022 18:22:14 GMT -5
I gave it a 5. I'm a die-hard Claremont X-Men fan, but that storyline seemed awkwardly paced, as if Claremont wasn't really sure what he wanted to do, and so the thing limped along awkwardly and then jumped to an arbitrary climax far too quickly. I adore what the Dark Phoenix Saga did for the X-Men franchise in its aftermath, and the concept itself was very powerful, but as a stand-alone story, I think it was problematic at best. That's my thing with Claremont, particularly this. His pacing is uneven. Like I said, he started well, then kind of stalls, then kicks it up, then stalls a bit, then rushes to an end. I think pacing has affected some of his other stories. As time wore on, it wasn't his pacing that rubbed me wrong, but his repetition.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Oct 29, 2022 18:24:01 GMT -5
I gave it a 5. I'm a die-hard Claremont X-Men fan, but that storyline seemed awkwardly paced, as if Claremont wasn't really sure what he wanted to do, and so the thing limped along awkwardly and then jumped to an arbitrary climax far too quickly. I adore what the Dark Phoenix Saga did for the X-Men franchise in its aftermath, and the concept itself was very powerful, but as a stand-alone story, I think it was problematic at best. That's my thing with Claremont, particularly this. His pacing is uneven. Like I said, he started well, then kind of stalls, then kicks it up, then stalls a bit, then rushes to an end. I think pacing has affected some of his other stories. As time wore on, it wasn't his pacing that rubbed me wrong, but his repetition. Post-Dark Phoenix, the characterizations are strong enough to compensate for any weaknesses in plotting, at least in my opinion. But He didn't really find the emotional core of these characters and this team until they had a death to mourn.
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Post by Calidore on Oct 29, 2022 18:28:59 GMT -5
May not be my place to say so, being only an occasional poster, but seeing someone's own subjective opinion be so aggressively challenged, with lawyering and even demands to satisfy the math, seems a bit much.
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 29, 2022 18:29:39 GMT -5
For me, a "1" would be a comic done by someone with no training, no talent and no previous experience. To be fair, Claremont had very little training and previous experience at this point. He was a former assistant editor thrown into a dream gig and learning as he went. Talent he had in spades, of course. Not at the point of Dark Phoenix. He had been on X-Men for 5 years, had published stories for 7, and had been writing anywhere from 3-5 titles at a go, for at least 3 years. He had a lot of published writing under his belt. I wouldn't call him a rookie, by the time he is doing Dark Phoenix; when he came on the book, yes.
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 29, 2022 18:40:25 GMT -5
That's my thing with Claremont, particularly this. His pacing is uneven. Like I said, he started well, then kind of stalls, then kicks it up, then stalls a bit, then rushes to an end. I think pacing has affected some of his other stories. As time wore on, it wasn't his pacing that rubbed me wrong, but his repetition. Post-Dark Phoenix, the characterizations are strong enough to compensate for any weaknesses in plotting, at least in my opinion. But He didn't really find the emotional core of these characters and this team until they had a death to mourn. I'd agree with that. For me, by 175, Claremont had been repeating himself and started turning personalities into less interesting things. I love early New X-Men, with Claremont and Cockrum. It's swashbuckling fun, with occasional angst. I enjoyed the introduction of the Shi-ar and Lilandra. I was disappointed with the conclusion to that epic, with the abrupt shift to Byrne and his absolute refusal or inability (whichever) to match the design aesthetic that Cockrum created for the Shi'ar ships and clothing and such. I think the book takes a leap forward with Byrne & Claremont. I liken them to The Police. The tension between Stewart Copeland and Sting made the band's work superior to their solo stuff, to my tastes. Similarly, the tension between Byrne and Claremont elevated both of their work and smoothed their rough edges. After Byrne leaves and Cockrum comes back, I enjoy the development of Kitty, the battle with Magneto and all that; but, it takes Cockrum a while to find his groove again. Paul Smith helps him a lot, when he arrives. The Brood thing was Alien, again, but Claremont hadn't beat it deep into the ground, yet. Give him a couple of years and he has driven it into the earth's core and stripped the carcass.
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Post by Cei-U! on Oct 29, 2022 18:52:40 GMT -5
I gave it a 5. I'm a die-hard Claremont X-Men fan, but that storyline seemed awkwardly paced, as if Claremont wasn't really sure what he wanted to do, and so the thing limped along awkwardly and then jumped to an arbitrary climax far too quickly. I adore what the Dark Phoenix Saga did for the X-Men franchise in its aftermath, and the concept itself was very powerful, but as a stand-alone story, I think it was problematic at best. That's my thing with Claremont, particularly this. His pacing is uneven. Like I said, he started well, then kind of stalls, then kicks it up, then stalls a bit, then rushes to an end. I think pacing has affected some of his other stories. As time wore on, it wasn't his pacing that rubbed me wrong, but his repetition. Considering that Claremont rarely, if ever, wrote full-script, at least some of the pacing problems you mention are likely attributabl to his artistic collaborators, especially Byrne (his FF run frequently featured weird pacing). In my eyes, Claremont's biggest flaw was ripping off ideas wholesale from other, usually better, works in other media. (Modesty Blaise, Star Trek, Alien, etc, etc).
Cei-U! But I still love the Dark Phoenix story!
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 29, 2022 18:58:13 GMT -5
That's my thing with Claremont, particularly this. His pacing is uneven. Like I said, he started well, then kind of stalls, then kicks it up, then stalls a bit, then rushes to an end. I think pacing has affected some of his other stories. As time wore on, it wasn't his pacing that rubbed me wrong, but his repetition. Considering that Claremont rarely, if ever, wrote full-script, at least some of the pacing problems you mention are likely attributabl to his artistic collaborators, especially Byrne (his FF run frequently featured weird pacing). In my eyes, Claremont's biggest flaw was ripping off ideas wholesale from other, usually better, works in other media. (Modesty Blaise, Star Trek, Alien, etc, etc).
Cei-U! But I still love the Dark Phoenix story!
Yeah, but I see that with him and different artists; so, that comes right back to Claremont.
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Oct 29, 2022 19:53:55 GMT -5
It's good. But for me not great. Subsequent works have diminished it, which isn't the fault of the original story, but is also difficult as a reader to completely ignore. I gave it a 7.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 29, 2022 20:31:19 GMT -5
I gave it an 8... excellent, impactful story that has to have done something right for people to still be talking about it 40+ years later. I would rate Days of Future Past and Second Coming above it as X-Ment stories go (I know the 2nd one isn't super popular, but I really liked it.) Definitely in the top 5 X-Men stories.. probably somewhere in the bottom half of the top 20 for Marvel in general.
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