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Post by tonebone on Oct 17, 2022 10:21:48 GMT -5
Fun Thread! Two comments before my list: - I REALLY Liked Force Works. I was just starting out with comics at the time, but it made me really happy to have an Iron Man family of titles, until they completely broke with one of my selections. - Perhaps it's because I only see it in hindsight, but I've never got the anger about bringing Jean Grey back.. she's the PHOENIX.. rising from the ashes and all. Was it really a big shock? I get that at the time death wasn't a revolving door as much as it is now, but still. My comics that make me ANGRY 1) THE CROSSING. I ended my pull list when this came out. Done. (granted it didn't last long, but still). What the hell was Marvel thinking? 2) Identity Crisis... just too much retconning of perfectly good harmless silver age fun. I can only imagine what people who were fans of Sue Dibny thought... 3) Killing Joke.. just too much. The last scene makes me cringe every time I see it. It's just not right. 4) Dark Knight Returns II. Go home Frank, you can't draw anymore. It's over. You were great, not you aren't. YES! I completely forgot (blocked out) Dark Knight II. I remember reading that he and Varley got ONE MILLION DOLLARS up front to produce the book, and it was sub-fan fiction, illustrated by a 7 year old. I mean, I remember reading interviews where he bragged he had "evolved" to the point where he could abandon the pencilling stage, and go straight to the inks (with markers, no less). And it was colored by a photoshop newbie who used the project to test out various cheesy PS filters the rest of the industry had already realized were unprofessional and sophomoric. I expected some of the same weight and drama of the first series, and got none of it. It was just a day-glo amatuerish mess.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Oct 17, 2022 12:22:38 GMT -5
That's what made me angry. First it was a facile way of describing the two men's relation, and second it was making light of that monster's crimes. All that was missing was a line like "what a sorry pair we are, amiright?" (Harh! Just thinking about that ending makes me all cranky again! )
I think the problem with the ending, for me, is that it would have worked for the Silver/Bronze Age Batman and Joker … but not the darker one which Moore ended up actually writing about. Usually his attempts at casting a more serious light on old concepts works, but in this case I think it got away from him.
At least he's admitted in later years the whole book was a mistake.
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Oct 17, 2022 13:06:20 GMT -5
Stray Dogs
Heard about it all over the place last year...made a mental note and found the graphic tpb for cheap so picked it up. Read it in one sitting and was left being baffled, almost mad, at how basic it was. I don't know, maybe my expectations were too high but there was nothing shocking, surprising or mysterious about it...which is what I wanted. I feel like a much MUCH better and deeper story could have been told here.
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Post by DubipR on Oct 17, 2022 18:25:03 GMT -5
Fun Thread! Two comments before my list: - I REALLY Liked Force Works. I was just starting out with comics at the time, but it made me really happy to have an Iron Man family of titles, until they completely broke with one of my selections. - Perhaps it's because I only see it in hindsight, but I've never got the anger about bringing Jean Grey back.. she's the PHOENIX.. rising from the ashes and all. Was it really a big shock? I get that at the time death wasn't a revolving door as much as it is now, but still. My comics that make me ANGRY 1) THE CROSSING. I ended my pull list when this came out. Done. (granted it didn't last long, but still). What the hell was Marvel thinking? 2) Identity Crisis... just too much retconning of perfectly good harmless silver age fun. I can only imagine what people who were fans of Sue Dibny thought... 3) Killing Joke.. just too much. The last scene makes me cringe every time I see it. It's just not right. 4) Dark Knight Returns II. Go home Frank, you can't draw anymore. It's over. You were great, not you aren't. Identity Crisis is one that gets me a bit upset. I remember reading somewhere that Meltzer said it's his love letter for the Silver Age. Really? I don't remember rape being so popular in DC Silver Age. It was pointless and lead to a story that basically lead Didio's company line to ruin a bunch of characters. Guess having a couple that truly loves each other doesn't sell. Which lead into INFINITE CRISIS which I didn't care for either. Johns killing off more and more characters so violently. I asked him why, especially when it came to the killing of the Freedom Fighters. His answer "because I could"... what kind of answer is that? It was a time at DC when I basically went from 20 titles to 1 (Jonah Hex). Killing Joke has always been problematic. What's more upsetting to me is that mainstream audiences, mainly the film goers are using this as his origin. To me that's always been the issue of the book. The Joker is and always will be an unreliable character, no matter what he says. Even his thoughts are jumbled and unreliable. I've always seen that book as a BS book. I bought it but I still think it's Moore's shi**iest work. Another title that I've had problems with was ORIGIN. Does Wolverine really need a definitive origin? Stupid lame farmhand that's lived over 100 plus years? Such a stupid story. Gorgeous art but that book is terrible. Like the Killing Joke, Wolverine's unreliable. Modern times, Japan, Madripoor.... his timeline is so scattershot. To me, his origin is Weapon X and ORIGIN is just a terrible memory implant that should've been erased.
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Post by tonebone on Oct 18, 2022 8:33:04 GMT -5
Fun Thread! Two comments before my list: - I REALLY Liked Force Works. I was just starting out with comics at the time, but it made me really happy to have an Iron Man family of titles, until they completely broke with one of my selections. - Perhaps it's because I only see it in hindsight, but I've never got the anger about bringing Jean Grey back.. she's the PHOENIX.. rising from the ashes and all. Was it really a big shock? I get that at the time death wasn't a revolving door as much as it is now, but still. My comics that make me ANGRY 1) THE CROSSING. I ended my pull list when this came out. Done. (granted it didn't last long, but still). What the hell was Marvel thinking? 2) Identity Crisis... just too much retconning of perfectly good harmless silver age fun. I can only imagine what people who were fans of Sue Dibny thought... 3) Killing Joke.. just too much. The last scene makes me cringe every time I see it. It's just not right. 4) Dark Knight Returns II. Go home Frank, you can't draw anymore. It's over. You were great, not you aren't. Identity Crisis is one that gets me a bit upset. I remember reading somewhere that Meltzer said it's his love letter for the Silver Age. Really? I don't remember rape being so popular in DC Silver Age. It was pointless and lead to a story that basically lead Didio's company line to ruin a bunch of characters. Guess having a couple that truly loves each other doesn't sell. Which lead into INFINITE CRISIS which I didn't care for either. Johns killing off more and more characters so violently. I asked him why, especially when it came to the killing of the Freedom Fighters. His answer "because I could"... what kind of answer is that? It was a time at DC when I basically went from 20 titles to 1 (Jonah Hex). Killing Joke has always been problematic. What's more upsetting to me is that mainstream audiences, mainly the film goers are using this as his origin. To me that's always been the issue of the book. The Joker is and always will be an unreliable character, no matter what he says. Even his thoughts are jumbled and unreliable. I've always seen that book as a BS book. I bought it but I still think it's Moore's shi**iest work. Another title that I've had problems with was ORIGIN. Does Wolverine really need a definitive origin? Stupid lame farmhand that's lived over 100 plus years? Such a stupid story. Gorgeous art but that book is terrible. Like the Killing Joke, Wolverine's unreliable. Modern times, Japan, Madripoor.... his timeline is so scattershot. To me, his origin is Weapon X and ORIGIN is just a terrible memory implant that should've been erased. I agree with you on Killing Joke... by far Moore's shakiest work. Concerning Wolverine.... I remember the excitement and wonderment of one particular Wolverine interaction... the X-Men land the Blackbird in Japan, and Wolverine greets their hosts in fluent Japanese... There was a lot of "I didn't know you could speak Japanese!" to which he responds "You didn't ask" or something equally snarky. That was the moment I fell in love with the character. He was layer after layer of mystery... He seemed just as likely to slash your throat as to save your life. Giving him a definitive origin was the dumbest, most short-sighted cash-grab Marvel could have made.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 18, 2022 9:26:35 GMT -5
The AvX crossover and its aftermath made me pretty angry. As a whole event its premise could have been salvaged, but its execution had me scratching my head so often that it became pretty irritating. Why do the Avengers react violently to the establishment of paradise on Earth? Why does everyone start hating a Phoenix-possessed Cyclops because he killed Xavier in self-defense while it's okay for Wolverine to try to murder Hope "just in case"? Why are there suddenly polar bears in Antarctica? How can Wakandans, one of the most xenophobic and secretive societies on Earth, suddenly be called "one of the most welcoming people on the planet?" How can the Phoenix force be b***-slapped by the K'un-Lun dragon?
It all felt as if the event had been engineered by someone who knew very little about the Marvel universe and just went "Hey, cool toy box! Let's have these heroes fight because reasons!".
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Post by Batflunkie on Oct 18, 2022 9:41:57 GMT -5
I don't think anything put me off of reading modern comics for a very long time more than Wolverine & Jubilee. The whole thing with Jubilee losing her mutant powers and becoming a vampire was just "reality tv show" levels of trash The only other thing that boils my water to that level is Nick Spencer's work on Captain America, but that's a story for another day and it's certainly not a "classic" comic yet
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 18, 2022 10:37:54 GMT -5
"How was I to know which one is Jubilee and which one is Wolverine"? protested the graphic designer. "I don't read those things, I only work here!"
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Post by mikelmidnight on Oct 18, 2022 10:58:47 GMT -5
"How was I to know which one is Jubilee and which one is Wolverine"? protested the graphic designer. "I don't read those things, I only work here!"
To be fair, nothing about Wolverine's costume suggests an actual wolverine.
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Post by Hoosier X on Oct 18, 2022 20:59:02 GMT -5
Identity Crisis is one that gets me a bit upset. I remember reading somewhere that Meltzer said it's his love letter for the Silver Age. Identity Crisis is a love letter to the Silver Age for people who don’t know what a love letter is or when the Silver Age was.
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Post by Duragizer on Oct 18, 2022 21:33:11 GMT -5
Identity Crisis is one that gets me a bit upset. I remember reading somewhere that Meltzer said it's his love letter for the Silver Age. Identity Crisis is a love letter to the Silver Age for people who don’t know what a love letter is or when the Silver Age was. Meltzer likely got his definition of "love letter" from Blue Velvet.
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Post by DubipR on Oct 18, 2022 22:28:58 GMT -5
Identity Crisis is one that gets me a bit upset. I remember reading somewhere that Meltzer said it's his love letter for the Silver Age. Really? I don't remember rape being so popular in DC Silver Age. It was pointless and lead to a story that basically lead Didio's company line to ruin a bunch of characters. Guess having a couple that truly loves each other doesn't sell. Which lead into INFINITE CRISIS which I didn't care for either. Johns killing off more and more characters so violently. I asked him why, especially when it came to the killing of the Freedom Fighters. His answer "because I could"... what kind of answer is that? It was a time at DC when I basically went from 20 titles to 1 (Jonah Hex). Killing Joke has always been problematic. What's more upsetting to me is that mainstream audiences, mainly the film goers are using this as his origin. To me that's always been the issue of the book. The Joker is and always will be an unreliable character, no matter what he says. Even his thoughts are jumbled and unreliable. I've always seen that book as a BS book. I bought it but I still think it's Moore's shi**iest work. Another title that I've had problems with was ORIGIN. Does Wolverine really need a definitive origin? Stupid lame farmhand that's lived over 100 plus years? Such a stupid story. Gorgeous art but that book is terrible. Like the Killing Joke, Wolverine's unreliable. Modern times, Japan, Madripoor.... his timeline is so scattershot. To me, his origin is Weapon X and ORIGIN is just a terrible memory implant that should've been erased. I agree with you on Killing Joke... by far Moore's shakiest work. Concerning Wolverine.... I remember the excitement and wonderment of one particular Wolverine interaction... the X-Men land the Blackbird in Japan, and Wolverine greets their hosts in fluent Japanese... There was a lot of "I didn't know you could speak Japanese!" to which he responds "You didn't ask" or something equally snarky. That was the moment I fell in love with the character. He was layer after layer of mystery... He seemed just as likely to slash your throat as to save your life. Giving him a definitive origin was the dumbest, most short-sighted cash-grab Marvel could have made. It's the same problem I've had with some of the Star Wars universe items, like Solo and the Book of Boba Fett. Some characters don't need the origin. I like that there was some mystery in comics and in movies and so forth. Wolverine was so enigmatic. He was cool and had an edge, now he's pretty much a common baseball in a factory set; oversaturated in all the X books and makes for boring reading.
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Post by Cei-U! on Oct 19, 2022 5:15:32 GMT -5
Identity Crisis is one that gets me a bit upset. I remember reading somewhere that Meltzer said it's his love letter for the Silver Age. Identity Crisis is a love letter to the Silver Age for people who don’t know what a love letter is or when the Silver Age was. Identity Crisis was a love letter to the Silver Age the way shooting Ronald Reagan was a love letter to Jodie Foster.
Cei-U! I summon the seal of disapproval!
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Post by Batflunkie on Oct 19, 2022 8:45:20 GMT -5
Had forgot about IDW's Judge Dredd from 2012. It's really bland and I remember defending it from naysayers, but as it went on, it literally just started copying storylines from the original 2000AD comics and it made me feel like an idiot for ever trying to defend it Even the DC iteration or hell, even Lawman Of The Future weren't as bad as the IDW incarnation
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Post by tonebone on Oct 19, 2022 9:11:41 GMT -5
I agree with you on Killing Joke... by far Moore's shakiest work. Concerning Wolverine.... I remember the excitement and wonderment of one particular Wolverine interaction... the X-Men land the Blackbird in Japan, and Wolverine greets their hosts in fluent Japanese... There was a lot of "I didn't know you could speak Japanese!" to which he responds "You didn't ask" or something equally snarky. That was the moment I fell in love with the character. He was layer after layer of mystery... He seemed just as likely to slash your throat as to save your life. Giving him a definitive origin was the dumbest, most short-sighted cash-grab Marvel could have made. It's the same problem I've had with some of the Star Wars universe items, like Solo and the Book of Boba Fett. Some characters don't need the origin. I like that there was some mystery in comics and in movies and so forth. Wolverine was so enigmatic. He was cool and had an edge, now he's pretty much a common baseball in a factory set; oversaturated in all the X books and makes for boring reading. I was going to cite Star Wars as the worst culprit of this. Darth Vader as a kid and teenager... Boba Fett as a kid... All it serves is to take the edge off of a previously edgy character. Having a character like Darth Vader show a moment of compassion when he kills the Emperor creates depth in his previously sinister character. Showing him as a loveable scamp as a kid undermines all of that sinisterness, and makes the turn to good at the end meaningless.
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