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Post by Ozymandias on Aug 2, 2022 1:59:45 GMT -5
Questions and opinions about CGC (CBCS or PGX) grading often pop up here and there, but I'm not aware of any specific thread about it. For the sake of searching, I think it's better to have a place to look for those, and where you can provide answers.
Then there's the question about the "professional" aspect of the grading. Many people complain about this or that company overgrading, or undergrading. Others question the idea of an industry standard itself. For my part, I should ask what makes someone a professional grader. Can't an eBay seller who spends his (or her) time grading comics, who makes a profit from that work, be considered as such? Isn't that the difference between professional and amateur?
And finally, a personal anecdote about a recent "disagreement" I had with the people at an eBay type Spanish collector's site. They were of the opinion that there were "new comics", and "used comics". That's it, no nuance to grades whatsoever. They didn't even recognize that a Mint comic might be ancient, or that a new, on the selves one, might be garbage material already. So yes, grading is pretty necessary. But, who do you trust?
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Aug 2, 2022 6:20:02 GMT -5
It's more about having an impartial, uninvolved, 3rd party doing the grading and having plenty of experience and knowledge doing the task. Knowing how to look for clues that the book has been restored, knowing how to defne the level of paper degradation etc.
Professional just means they get paid for that work
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Post by Ozymandias on Aug 2, 2022 7:04:36 GMT -5
So the difference is that they get paid exclusively for that work? Because I know any big, respectable online comic shop have graders of their own, they just might do other tasks too.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2022 7:05:26 GMT -5
And finally, a personal anecdote about a recent "disagreement" I had with the people at an eBay type Spanish collector's site. They were of the opinion that there were "new comics", and "used comics". That's it, no nuance to grades whatsoever. They didn't even recognize that a Mint comic might be ancient, or that a new, on the selves one, might be garbage material already. So yes, grading is pretty necessary. But, who do you trust?
I agree. That is a lack of nuance. Can it go the other way? The only “grading” I ever read about is in a FB group devoted to WWF Hasbro figures (1990-94). It feels like there is an ever-increasing list of different grades. Bit like how some pubs are doing the same with their cooking levels for steak; my local pub now has “Very Well Done” in addition to “Well Done”. Where does it stop? Has comic grading been pretty much consistent over many decades?
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Post by Ozymandias on Aug 2, 2022 7:17:56 GMT -5
Of course it can, I honestly don't see the difference between 10.0 (GM) Gem Mint and 9.9 (M) Mint.
Likewise others might feel there's no difference between other grades. In general, I find uses for every other grade. The only problem is that my perception of those grades need not correspond with the seller's, which is why I try to buy from the same places regularly. To me, those graders are more trustworthy than some working in a "professional" capacity, like the two Batman/Grendel issues posted in another thread.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2022 7:20:07 GMT -5
Has comic grading been pretty much consistent over many decades? Not in practice! I remember going to large conventions back in the day, hitting up countless dealers and having to make my own decisions on their purported grades and pricing. Sure, you weren't likely to see too many "near mints" with say a hard fold on the cover, but beyond that, lots of inconsistency. What's funny is if you just LOOK at a book, you know if it looks pleasing to you, even without applying published technical standards. How people have determined that their own eyes aren't as good as giving somebody else their money to tell them what grade their book is blows my mind. Unless you are truly needing to authenticate say something pretty high dollar like a rare vintage book that could materially be impacted by misrepresentation (intentional or not) and requires a more seasoned grading expert, this stuff isn't rocket science unless you want to play speculator.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2022 7:20:33 GMT -5
It seems to be as hard as working out who’s champion at any time in boxing, with super champions, undisputed champions and whatever other nonsense the alphabet groups of boxing have come up with.
So, may I please ask, is there a list of the grades that are considered “sacrosanct” by the majority of people, forum members or otherwise?
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Aug 2, 2022 7:43:46 GMT -5
So the difference is that they get paid exclusively for that work? Because I know any big, respectable online comic shop have graders of their own, they just might do other tasks too. No, as i said before, it's having a uninvolved 3rd party determining a grade. If a seller does the grading, consciously or unconsciously, they would be biased. I wouldn't get hung up on the term "Professional". I'd concentrate on experienced and knowledgeable You, yourself, cited an instance where a seller's grading would devolve into chaos
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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 2, 2022 8:13:20 GMT -5
Can anyone getting paid for the service REALLY be impartial? The grader knows the.. gradee? will be happiest with a high grade, and is getting paid for that service. That has got to effect things, even if subconsciously.
Like, are graders more generous to Mile High or Midtown (who surely send in 1000s of books a year), to say, Shaxper, who did a couple dozen. The temptation to grade smaller customers harder (to maintain credibility) and larger customers higher to keep them happy seems strong.
That said, I'm not the target, I don't care, and would never buy a graded book (since they cost more, and I just want to read them).
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Aug 2, 2022 8:31:12 GMT -5
Can anyone getting paid for the service REALLY be impartial? The grader knows the.. gradee? will be happiest with a high grade, and is getting paid for that service. That has got to effect things, even if subconsciously. Like, are graders more generous to Mile High or Midtown (who surely send in 1000s of books a year), to say, Shaxper, who did a couple dozen. The temptation to grade smaller customers harder (to maintain credibility) and larger customers higher to keep them happy seems strong. That said, I'm not the target, I don't care, and would never buy a graded book (since they cost more, and I just want to read them). Yes, that's a real concern to many. Personally I'm not the target either. I've gotten rid of all my books many years ago. I'm quite happy with just having a digital collection and not having to deal with condition of comics, physical space for comics, costs of comics etc.
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Post by Ozymandias on Aug 2, 2022 8:36:45 GMT -5
Has comic grading been pretty much consistent over many decades? Sorry, missed the question.
I don't think it has, there's even different editions of the Overstreet Grading Guide, and those aren't a xerox of one another. The more interesting question is: do graders use the same standard for comics of different periods? I say this, because I usually find Silver Age copies are in worse condition than Bronze Age ones, at the same grade. At least from the vendors I know with scans online.
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Post by Ozymandias on Aug 2, 2022 8:52:16 GMT -5
What's funny is if you just LOOK at a book, you know if it looks pleasing to you, even without applying published technical standards. How people have determined that their own eyes aren't as good as giving somebody else their money to tell them what grade their book is blows my mind. Unless you are truly needing to authenticate say something pretty high dollar like a rare vintage book that could materially be impacted by misrepresentation (intentional or not) and requires a more seasoned grading expert, this stuff isn't rocket science unless you want to play speculator. Well, it may be pleasant, or more pleasant, there are degrees. For example, I remember sitting on a Mint copy 35 years ago, and how I turned pale. The copy was still pleasant afterwards; it wasn't dirty, or stained, or wet, it didn't have any tears or rips, staples were still attached and the spine had not been folded. But it wasn't just as pleasant, it wasn't Mint anymore. Having a way to let someone know how "not Mint" it is, can be useful if you plan on selling it. Specially way back then, before you could just scan it and let the buyer decide for himself. Nowadays is a way to offer additional information to the pictures. I read somewhere "describe the item as if there were no pictures, take pictures as if there was no description". It's the combination that which allows the buyer to have a good idea what it is he's buying, before having it on his hands.
As for trusting someone else, the only reason I can see for that is wanting to avoid problems. "You don't like the grade? Take it with them." It doesn't need to be some extra expensive item, just something valuable enough that the cost of having it graded is less than what you might lose otherwise. Of course, it only makes sense to me if I'm going to put it on sale as soon as it gets back. I don't want slabs in my collection.
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Post by Ozymandias on Aug 2, 2022 9:04:45 GMT -5
is there a list of the grades that are considered “sacrosanct” by the majority of people, forum members or otherwise? Not in its entirety. Take the case I mentioned earlier. These are the definitions as published here:
Seems pretty straightforward, but what is a "manufacturing defect"? I can quote a very reliable grader as saying "Miswraps have no impact on grade in any grade according to CGC (I've seen 9.8s with miswraps) and, as far as I'm aware, Overstreet no longer consider this to be a defect." BTW, a sign that grades haven't been consistent over the years.
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Post by Ozymandias on Aug 2, 2022 9:10:01 GMT -5
Can anyone getting paid for the service REALLY be impartial? The grader knows the.. gradee? will be happiest with a high grade, and is getting paid for that service. That has got to effect things, even if subconsciously. Like, are graders more generous to Mile High or Midtown (who surely send in 1000s of books a year), to say, Shaxper, who did a couple dozen. The temptation to grade smaller customers harder (to maintain credibility) and larger customers higher to keep them happy seems strong. That said, I'm not the target, I don't care, and would never buy a graded book (since they cost more, and I just want to read them). I guess it will depend on things like those, and on who actually does the grade. As much of a professional or experienced grader as they may be, they aren't machines and will have different views on the same comic, even the same grader on different days.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2022 9:45:33 GMT -5
I've seen some slabbing enthusiasts on youtube slam CGC for over-grading their books....nitpicking at several conspicuous flaws that could never really objectively earn a book a 9.8. They resell graded books for a living but knew these grades would hurt them rather than help them.
And there's also a recent travesty where a 'fascimile' edition was labelled as an original.
Both of the above follies were due to inexperience at the grading establishment.
I'm not against professional graded books....but I am against the unreasonable premium that can be associated with them....and as mentioned above, grading remains subjective and you might not be happy with the result.
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