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Post by dbutler69 on Jan 24, 2022 19:20:45 GMT -5
I know certain stories polarize opinions. So it goes. Something I found odd at the time was... in the wake of several one-issue fill-ins (the kind of chaos that happened a hell of a lot more in the 70s & 80s than ever did in the 60s), O'Neil became IRON MAN's new regular writer WITHOUT the fact ever once being announced. It was like, he was one more fill-in guy, but then, someone decided he'd just stick around. FOR OVER 3 YEARS. Then there's Luke McDonnell, who I still consider a horrible penciller, and Steve Mitchell, who never seemed to rise about being a 3rd-rate Klaus Janson (and I never liked Janson in the first place). They did genuinely get better as they stayed and stayed and stayed. But I also found it interesting that Akin & Garvey (a pair of "slick" inkers if there were were any) took over just about the time Tony's life started to turn around for the better. Not sure what to make of the almost "Shogun Warrior"-style armor that debuted once he finally got his act together. The oddest thing may be the SILVER coloring, instead of the YELLOW/GOLDEN coloring. And then, not long after Tony got himself together again, O'Neil was gone. Which gives me the impression DRAGGING HIM THRU THE MUD was the only thing O'Neil was ever really interested in doing. He did similar things (though not quite as brutal) with Deborah Harris over in DAREDEVIL. This was all before he left Marvel (at Jim Shooter's URGING, I have no doubt) and took over as editor of Batman, and before he was half-through on that, made me genuinely come to HATE what had until then been my favorite costumed hero. Way to go, O'Neil. If memory serves (without looking it up), after about 6 consecutive fill-ins by a rotating cast of writers & artists, Michelinie & Layton decided to come back for a 2nd run-- only this time, without J.R. Jr. A lot of it was pretty good. At the time, of course, I would have preferred if they'd never have left. When they eventually DID leave, the 2nd time-- whatta ya know-- that's when J.R. Jr. finally did come back, his art having mutated to where it was almost unrecognizable from what he'd been doing before. I don't know how I hung on as long as I did. But I did finally leave, BEFORE the stories that most fans generally tend to think were horrible and irredeemably awful arrived. I agree on McDonell and JRJ.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 24, 2022 19:22:01 GMT -5
Agreed. I loathe O'Neil's run on Iron Man. I'd been following the character since the Tales of Suspense days but O'Neil caused me to drop the book from my pull list. Cei-U! I summon the end of an era! I'm thinking I'll skip the rest of the run and move on to the next writer. Which I think is Michelinie again? That should be good. Well, I think that run was great. Cei-U!, what was your objection to his run ?
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Post by profh0011 on Jan 26, 2022 0:00:39 GMT -5
Just checked... Akin & Garvey replaced Mitchell in # 190. McDonnell's last issue was # 195. Following Rich Buckler, Sal Buscema & Herb Trimpe, Mark Bright debuted in # 200, the climax of the 3 year-long "Tony falls off the wagon and INTO THE GUTTER" storyline. O'Neil's last issue was # 208. Following 7 FILL-IN issues in a row (!!), David Michelinie & Bob Layton's 2nd run began in # 215. The entire process I just referenced here was Tony "dragging himself out of the gutter" and back to where he belonged.
As O'Neil's last issue was in mid-1986, it looks like he went from that directly to dragging BATMAN's reputation down (for at least the next 15 straight years).
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Post by james on Jan 28, 2022 7:20:59 GMT -5
Kind of surprised that Captain Marvel dying of cancer didn’t get more votes. Prior to that was death to a super powered being by such mortal means ever done in a comic with such , IMHO, sensitivity, and empathy for a character? Or now that I think about it, since?
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Post by tarkintino on Jan 28, 2022 8:05:28 GMT -5
Kind of surprised that Captain Marvel dying of cancer didn’t get more votes. Prior to that was death to a super powered being by such mortal means ever done in a comic with such , IMHO, sensitivity, and empathy for a character? Or now that I think about it, since? The Doom Patrol #121 (September/October, 1968) saw the team die by sacrificing themselves (in a plot conceived by longtime adversaries General Zahl & Madame Rouge) in exchange for the lives of the residents of a small fishing village.
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Post by dbutler69 on Jan 28, 2022 9:30:52 GMT -5
Kind of surprised that Captain Marvel dying of cancer didn’t get more votes. Prior to that was death to a super powered being by such mortal means ever done in a comic with such , IMHO, sensitivity, and empathy for a character? Or now that I think about it, since? I agree with you, and hence why I voted for that.
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Post by james on Jan 28, 2022 11:18:26 GMT -5
Kind of surprised that Captain Marvel dying of cancer didn’t get more votes. Prior to that was death to a super powered being by such mortal means ever done in a comic with such , IMHO, sensitivity, and empathy for a character? Or now that I think about it, since? The Doom Patrol #121 (September/October, 1968) saw the team die by sacrificing themselves (in a plot conceived by longtime adversaries General Zahl & Madame Rouge) in exchange for the lives of the residents of a small fishing village. I keep meaning to read the Doom Patrol collection.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Jan 28, 2022 12:25:16 GMT -5
Kind of surprised that Captain Marvel dying of cancer didn’t get more votes. Prior to that was death to a super powered being by such mortal means ever done in a comic with such , IMHO, sensitivity, and empathy for a character? Or now that I think about it, since?
I think because Mar-Vell was always a B-lister (despite being Marvel's title character), and when the gnovel came out he'd not had a current comic for a couple years.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 28, 2022 12:49:41 GMT -5
Kind of surprised that Captain Marvel dying of cancer didn’t get more votes. Prior to that was death to a super powered being by such mortal means ever done in a comic with such , IMHO, sensitivity, and empathy for a character? Or now that I think about it, since? I think it has to do with Mar-Vell not undergoing any change in how we viewed him; while the story was indeed moving and very well done, it was actually rather fitting: the warrior who had grown more philosophical over time finally accepted the inevitability of his death.
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Post by berkley on Jan 28, 2022 13:48:07 GMT -5
Kind of surprised that Captain Marvel dying of cancer didn’t get more votes. Prior to that was death to a super powered being by such mortal means ever done in a comic with such , IMHO, sensitivity, and empathy for a character? Or now that I think about it, since? I think it has to do with Mar-Vell not undergoing any change in how we viewed him; while the story was indeed moving and very well done, it was actually rather fitting: the warrior who had grown more philosophical over time finally accepted the inevitability of his death.
Yes, the real shake-up with that character was the change from the Kree military officer to the defender of the cosmos.
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Post by tonebone on Feb 3, 2022 10:27:02 GMT -5
Sue Disney getting murdered was rough... I heard Walt was really shook up.
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Post by commond on Feb 3, 2022 21:23:30 GMT -5
Isn't death more than just a shake up?
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Post by berkley on Feb 4, 2022 0:56:11 GMT -5
Isn't death more than just a shake up? Yeah, I think shake-up implies a change in the character's status that we then see played out in the subsequent history of the character. But if a character is killed off and stays killed off (obviously not a given in superhero comics) then there is no subsequent history: it's more of an ending than a change.
And if they don't stay killed off, then in superhero comics they usually come back and just keep on doing much the same kind of thing they were doing before, so that isn't much of a shake-up either - as we were saying about the "death" of Superman.
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Post by Marv-El on Feb 4, 2022 14:30:44 GMT -5
Agreed. I loathe O'Neil's run on Iron Man. I'd been following the character since the Tales of Suspense days but O'Neil caused me to drop the book from my pull list. Cei-U! I summon the end of an era! So you all hated Rhodey becoming Iron Man as well? Let's be fair here, after Black Panther, Rhodey was what, the second, third black super hero for Marvel? It's a concurrent story line throughout, Rhodey learning if he has what it takes to become a hero while Tony struggles to reclaim his life and his own heroic nature. And yes, Michenlie & Layton let Tony off the hook in 'Demon in a Bottle', absolutely did. They introduced the problem and then broadly resolved it because Love Conquers All. So I applaud O'Neil for bringing this disease back and having Tony really suffer the consequences of it. You may not like the scenarios that O'Neil employed to develop these consequences but I think it's a warranted view and worthy character journey for Tony Stark (much along the same lines of Steve Rogers questioning his commitment to the American gov't versus the American people). You all may rather read of the millionaire playboy Tony Stark but for me, this story arc made me into a Iron Man fan to this very day for it humanized Tony far more than yet another mindless beat-down of the Crimson Dynamo.
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Post by Cei-U! on Feb 4, 2022 15:40:49 GMT -5
Actually, I thought Rhodey's becoming Iron Man was the only redeeming feature of O'Neil's run.
Cei-U! I summon the afterthought!
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