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Post by berkley on Jan 14, 2022 2:28:37 GMT -5
I admit I haven't actually read them, but to me things like the death of Superman or Batman getting his back broken hardly qualify as a shake-up: they sound or look like big changes on the surface but when you look at the actiual repercussions, there weren't any:the characters pretty quickly went back to their normal state. So these are just like any other batman or Superman story with the hero overcoming adversity and winning in the end, just as they always do. Unlike, say, Batgirl staying in wheelchair for decades afterwards and playing a completely different sort of role to what she had done in her previous history.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 14, 2022 4:37:37 GMT -5
I admit I haven't actually read them, but to me things like the death of Superman or Batman getting his back broken hardly qualify as a shake-up: they sound or look like big changes on the surface but when you look at the actiual repercussions, there weren't any:the characters pretty quickly went back to their normal state. So these are just like any other batman or Superman story with the hero overcoming adversity and winning in the end, just as they always do. Unlike, say, Batgirl staying in wheelchair for decades afterwards and playing a completely different sort of role to what she had done in her previous history. I definitely agree with Superman and Batman. Add to that the fact that anyone with two brain cells knew that they were both stunts and weren’t going to last. No rational person thought that Superman wasn't coming back or that Bruce Wayne wasn't going to be Batman again.
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Post by Dizzy D on Jan 14, 2022 6:50:22 GMT -5
I'm going to work through all the options to work out which of these would count as biggest shake-up/change in status quo:
1. Hank Pym smacks jan and loses his hero status: It definitely changed how we would see Hank for the rest of his career, even all attempts to redeem him have felt hollow. 2. Iron Man becomes an alcoholic: Shocking at the time and it still has some influence, but the big impact was only for a short while, before Tony went back to being himself. 3. Swamp Thing discovers he's not Alec Holland: Probably the biggest I can think off, maybe some writers since wanted to return to a pre-Moore Swamp Thing, but everything I've seen is more interested in exploring the Plant Elemental and if we want a scientist turned into a tragic monster, well, that one is not exactly rare in comics. 4. Hal Jordan loses his mind and becomes a villain: Big shocking change, also completely reverted some years later. 5. Batman has his back broken: Minor change, nobody at the time believed that Batman would stay out of commission. 6. Superman dies: It made the news, but it was such a short event and it didn't really change the character itself. 7. Daredevil has his life destroyed in Born again: Big impact on the character personality wise. Probably also one of the more better written shake-ups as said here. 8. Blue Beetle is killed by Max Lord: Sadly for Blue Beetle, this is barely a blip (death for comicbook characters is mostly a temporary inconvenience). It was a major change for Max Lord though, who I don't think has reverted to his old portrayal since then? 9. The Torch Marries Alicia 10. Spider-man was a clone all along: Temporary situation which like Batman's broken back nobody bought. 11. Robin becomes Nightwing: One of the few characters that has been allowed to grow up. Don't see it as a big shake-up though as this was a long and gradual process. 12. Barbara Gordon is crippled: Like said, this was a big, unexpected shake-up that really changed the character itself. 13. Captain Marvel dies of Cancer: Technicality, but it didn't change a comic, it was a standalone wrap-up for a character. It was a lasting change (one of the few deaths in comics that seem to have mattered). 14. Sue Dibney is murdered: A sad story, but it didn't really change characters that much. See other deaths in comics.
Of those listed: Swamp Thing seems to have been the most substantial and lasting change.
Some other nominees (none hitting Swamp Thing level of changes): - Hulk turns gray (again) and becomes smarter. "Joe Fixit" has been a staple of the title ever since. - Beast turning furry: Not just a physical change, also a noticeable change in his character.
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Post by commond on Jan 14, 2022 6:57:21 GMT -5
Speedy becomes a junkie. Magneto rips the adamantium from Wolverine's skeleton. John Byrne disassembles Vision. Superman grows a mullet. Superman loses said mullet.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 14, 2022 7:25:55 GMT -5
I admit I haven't actually read them, but to me things like the death of Superman or Batman getting his back broken hardly qualify as a shake-up: they sound or look like big changes on the surface but when you look at the actiual repercussions, there weren't any:the characters pretty quickly went back to their normal state. So these are just like any other batman or Superman story with the hero overcoming adversity and winning in the end, just as they always do. Unlike, say, Batgirl staying in wheelchair for decades afterwards and playing a completely different sort of role to what she had done in her previous history. I definitely agree with Superman and Batman. Add to that the fact that anyone with two brain cells knew that they were both stunts and weren’t going to last. No rational person thought that Superman wasn't coming back or that Bruce Wayne wasn't going to be Batman again. I have been listening to a podcast called Dollar Bin bandits and recently they had about 5 Superman creators in separate shows talk about the Death of Superman. One of them pointed out that the sales of Superman were in the tank and they wanted an event to make the character popular again. They made a good point, they said that people all around the world responded to the event and made the comic a top seller because they cared about the character even though they had taken him for granted. Once the media said that Superman was going to die, people around the world showed that they cared and wanted the character they loved alive.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jan 14, 2022 8:06:28 GMT -5
Marvel killing off Uncle Ben. Spider-Man was never the same after that. Though I have never read a Spiderman issue before Uncle Ben died, I would tend to agree and never really thought of it when I was considering the options in the OP. For me, I saw Aunt May died, though that has been retconned And I thought that it was very well done. Respectful, dignified and sad. Though I only sporadically bought Spiderman after that you could see how some writers used that event to impact Peter both as himself and Spiderman in his actions.
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Post by commond on Jan 14, 2022 8:20:00 GMT -5
Bringing back Aunt May was a mistake. It was inevitable at some point that May had to die. That was a story that needed to be told. Spider-Man, in particular, seems to have had a lot of poor retcons.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 14, 2022 9:16:51 GMT -5
7. Daredevil has his life destroyed in Born again: Big impact on the character personality wise. Probably also one of the more better written shake-ups as said here.
Very true!
Since it was very much a Frank Miller thing, it could have been reversed as soon as Born Again was over... but to the credit of Ann Nocenti who became the next regular writer, the change in status quo pretty much stuck. It took another change of writer, years later, to undo the change.
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Post by badwolf on Jan 14, 2022 10:29:31 GMT -5
8. Blue Beetle is killed by Max Lord: Sadly for Blue Beetle, this is barely a blip (death for comicbook characters is mostly a temporary inconvenience). It was a major change for Max Lord though, who I don't think has reverted to his old portrayal since then? He was killed by Wonder Woman not long after.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 14, 2022 10:44:16 GMT -5
6. Superman dies: It made the news, but it was such a short event and it didn't really change the character itself. He wore a mullet for a while. How much change do you think people can handle?
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Post by Dizzy D on Jan 14, 2022 10:47:09 GMT -5
8. Blue Beetle is killed by Max Lord: Sadly for Blue Beetle, this is barely a blip (death for comicbook characters is mostly a temporary inconvenience). It was a major change for Max Lord though, who I don't think has reverted to his old portrayal since then? He was killed by Wonder Woman not long after. Yeah, but he was back after a few years after that.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 14, 2022 11:33:48 GMT -5
He was killed by Wonder Woman not long after. Yeah, but he was back after a few years after that. I think that DC has rebooted their universe 3 times since.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Jan 14, 2022 12:39:57 GMT -5
I'm going to work through all the options to work out which of these would count as biggest shake-up/change in status quo: 1. Hank Pym smacks jan and loses his hero status: It definitely changed how we would see Hank for the rest of his career, even all attempts to redeem him have felt hollow.
I voted for this one. Many of the others had bigger long-term effects, but either I knew they were temporary or else for some reason I wasn't committed to the characters in question. This shocked me when I read it, and frankly was one of the reasons I stopped buying Marvel comics for years afterwards.
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Post by jason on Jan 16, 2022 21:44:15 GMT -5
Marvel killing off Uncle Ben. Spider-Man was never the same after that. Though I have never read a Spiderman issue before Uncle Ben died, I would tend to agree and never really thought of it when I was considering the options in the OP. I think Confessor's line was meant to be tongue-in-cheek (Uncle Ben died in the first Spider-Man story). I'd argue the introduction of the New X-Men team in the 70s was a pretty significant shake-up. It's hard to think of the team without Wolverine or Storm, among others.
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Post by Calidore on Jan 16, 2022 22:20:51 GMT -5
A big one that comes to mind for me is Magneto's retcon as a Jewish holocaust survivor. Suddenly he went from a one-dimensional megalomaniac villain to a three-dimensional antagonist with very understandable motivations, and his relationship with Professor X and his students grew many additional layers.
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