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Post by tingramretro on Oct 18, 2021 16:55:42 GMT -5
It's not just about falling readership, it's also about rising overheads. There's no point in selling half a million copies of a comic if the price is so low that you lose money on every unit sold because it costs too much to produce and distribute them. Yes, we agree. It's more and more expensive to make them, and the pool of people buying them is shrinking. For these and many other reasons, comic books are a very expensive hobby now, particularly when competing for the same limited entertainment budget. Theoretically if somehow comics got back to early 90s sales numbers, at some point there should be enough units sold to cover overhead. Then your only costs would be variable. With a significantly wider audience, again, theoretically comics might have enough ad revenue to subsidize costs enough to get the price point down. I have no idea what that looks like for comics or where the economies of scale lie, though. Theory aside, in practice, that is of course unrealistic because that is not what happened. Other folks here can better speak to how the state of comics got to what it is. Well, the the whole question of advertising revenue is part of it. I have some experience of magazine publishing, and a big part of why periodicals of all kinds are slowly dying is because nobody wants to buy advertising space in them anymore. Why would they, when they can reach a far wider audience for far less cost by advertising online? Even if they were selling in the kind of numbers they were in the early nineties, it would still be nothing compared to the exposure the advertisers could get just by people scrolling through Facebook.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Oct 18, 2021 16:59:41 GMT -5
That does make sense to a point. Being a baseball card collector at one time, collectible comic cards and the animated shows from the 90's were what eventually peaked my interest to start buying actual comic books. But I can see them (comics and baseball/comic cards) being more relatable to each other than printed periodicals and movies. So no, it's not a real surprise that the MCU movies are the cash cow of Marvel right not, at least, as long as they hold their popularity. Yeah, there was also a certain amount of overlap due to the collector mindset in general between baseball cards and comic cards/books. You wouldn't have to go completely out of your way to find comics or their cards, and even if you did go to a specialty shop, the same one often sold comics andbaseball cards. But even at the supermarket or casual retail chain of your choice, you could get baseball cards and comics at a lot of the same regular stores. I read many a comic on the shelf at the grocery store waiting for my parents as a kid. I also started shopping at the specialty shops after I got serious about the hobby. About the only place I have seen comics outside of shops is Walmart. And that't mostly randomly packed books and large "100 page special" kind of books. But they don't seem to move. While they are with collectible stuff, they seem to just sit, while things like those Funko? things, sports and non-sport cards along with Pokemon and Pokemon related products are always empty. I often wonder if like radio shows, comics will either die in the way that exist now, or will have to drastically change for the content to reach others. Vast majority of younger people, with music for example, are almost 100% digit. Physical media for music is almost non-existent. We maybe the last generation dinosaurs reading physical comics. I know, I now have probably as many if not more digital video games than I do physical. So developers are starting only sell their games digitally. At least on release day. I imagine that is going to be a growing trend. Much like the f2p platform.
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Post by impulse on Oct 18, 2021 20:46:48 GMT -5
Some of the folks here who have worked in comic stores have said that while the monthly "floppy" superhero comics as we know them aren't doing great, others in different formats are thriving. I vaguely recall manga/collected editions of new independent IP in bookstore editions, etc.
It's not the graphic novel format altogether, just as we here know it.
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Post by tarkintino on Oct 19, 2021 6:39:10 GMT -5
I often wonder if like radio shows, comics will either die in the way that exist now, or will have to drastically change for the content to reach others. Vast majority of younger people, with music for example, are almost 100% digit. Physical media for music is almost non-existent. We maybe the last generation dinosaurs reading physical comics. I know, I now have probably as many if not more digital video games than I do physical. So developers are starting only sell their games digitally. At least on release day. I imagine that is going to be a growing trend. Much like the f2p platform. The industry had the right idea in the 1970s, when DC, Gold Key, Marvel, Archie and others began publishing TPB reprints; it not only exposed readers to historically valuable / important titles, but still encouraged following long runs without the "burden" of chasing / piling up monthlies. Even though this model continued into the 90s with DC Archives and Marvel Masterworks, HB or TPB collections should have become at least half of the publisher's output, as I've always found it more accessible (easier to find and collect) than issue #48987-A/Variant of Universe 61652 of Random Superhero title.
Monthlies--floppies--are just not carried everywhere as in days of old, and it appears that the known decline of a cultural interest in the practice of collecting monthlies is only gaining momentum.
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Post by impulse on Oct 19, 2021 14:18:35 GMT -5
Well, the the whole question of advertising revenue is part of it. I have some experience of magazine publishing, and a big part of why periodicals of all kinds are slowly dying is because nobody wants to buy advertising space in them anymore. Why would they, when they can reach a far wider audience for far less cost by advertising online? Even if they were selling in the kind of numbers they were in the early nineties, it would still be nothing compared to the exposure the advertisers could get just by people scrolling through Facebook. So, we agree, comics are less available than ever, more expensive than ever, and the obvious strategies to try and mitigate cost and placement as a barrier don't work, and companies wouldn't be interested in doing them. How can you really fault newer fans of the characters brought in by the movies for not reading the comics, then?
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Post by tingramretro on Oct 19, 2021 15:34:23 GMT -5
Well, the the whole question of advertising revenue is part of it. I have some experience of magazine publishing, and a big part of why periodicals of all kinds are slowly dying is because nobody wants to buy advertising space in them anymore. Why would they, when they can reach a far wider audience for far less cost by advertising online? Even if they were selling in the kind of numbers they were in the early nineties, it would still be nothing compared to the exposure the advertisers could get just by people scrolling through Facebook. So, we agree, comics are less available than ever, more expensive than ever, and the obvious strategies to try and mitigate cost and placement as a barrier don't work, and companies wouldn't be interested in doing them. How can you really fault newer fans of the characters brought in by the movies for not reading the comics, then? I don't see that they're unavailable. I'm not even in America, and there are two comic shops within twenty five miles of me. One of them just half an hour away. And of course, there's always eBay shops.
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Post by impulse on Oct 19, 2021 15:58:52 GMT -5
So, we agree, comics are less available than ever, more expensive than ever, and the obvious strategies to try and mitigate cost and placement as a barrier don't work, and companies wouldn't be interested in doing them. How can you really fault newer fans of the characters brought in by the movies for not reading the comics, then? I don't see that they're unavailable. I'm not even in America, and there are two comic shops within twenty five miles of me. One of them just half an hour away. And of course, there's always eBay shops. I don't think it is reasonable to expect a non-comics reader to drive 25 miles to one of only two specialty shops in an area to buy into a very expensive hobby that is not remotely aimed at newcomers. The direct market is aimed at existing readers, and the big publishers don't do much to make it easy for someone to jump in. Even if they wanted to, how could they? How many # 1s, new origins, renumberings, jumping on points are there? Not to mention comic stores are closing all the time. There are fewer comics made than before. Those that are made are more expensive than ever and sold exclusively in specialty shops. You can buy some back issues online, sure, but it's not easy to consistently get full stories, and keys are already priced at a premium. Not everyone who isn't already a collector is interested in buying lots of back issues and piecing together runs. Really, the logic seems quite similar to saying unless you track down a band's first-pressings on the original LP only you're not a true fan if the band. The statement "comic books are available for purchase" might be technically true, but it's about as unapproachable and unwieldy as anything could be, and expecting movie fans should not only want to be are somewhat obligated to dive into an expensive, dense and convoluted hobby is quite unrealistic IMO.
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Post by tingramretro on Oct 19, 2021 16:02:47 GMT -5
I don't see that they're unavailable. I'm not even in America, and there are two comic shops within twenty five miles of me. One of them just half an hour away. And of course, there's always eBay shops. I don't think it is reasonable to expect a non-comics reader to drive 25 miles to one of only two specialty shops in an area to buy into a very expensive hobby that is not remotely aimed at newcomers. The direct market is aimed at existing readers, and the big publishers don't do much to make it easy for someone to jump in. Even if they wanted to, how could they? How many # 1s, new origins, renumberings, jumping on points are there? Not to mention comic stores are closing all the time. There are fewer comics made than before. Those that are made are more expensive than ever and sold exclusively in specialty shops. You can buy some back issues online, sure, but it's not easy to consistently get full stories, and keys are already priced at a premium. Not everyone who isn't already a collector is interested in buying lots of back issues and piecing together runs. Really, the logic seems quite similar to saying unless you track down a band's first-pressings on the original LP only you're not a true fan if the band. The statement "comic books are available for purchase" might be technically true, but it's about as unapproachable and unwieldy as anything could be, and expecting movie fans should not only want to be are somewhat obligated to dive into an expensive, dense and convoluted hobby is quite unrealistic IMO. Actually, there aren't fewer comics being published these days. Quite the opposite, in fact. And sales have apparently been steadily rising for a few years now. Sales of comics and graphic novels reached an all time high in 2020, according to some sources. 1.28 billion dollars.
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Post by Prince Hal on Oct 19, 2021 16:05:25 GMT -5
So, we agree, comics are less available than ever, more expensive than ever, and the obvious strategies to try and mitigate cost and placement as a barrier don't work, and companies wouldn't be interested in doing them. How can you really fault newer fans of the characters brought in by the movies for not reading the comics, then? I don't see that they're unavailable. I'm not even in America, and there are two comic shops within twenty five miles of me. One of them just half an hour away. And of course, there's always eBay shops. Not to be a contrarian, but I live in America and there is but one store that sells comics in my neck of the woods. It's in the only mall hereabouts and serves an area of just about 400 square miles and a population of around 225,000. The next nearest stores that sell comics are 60 and 70 miles distant, one to the west, the other to the north. So... yeah, they're not easy to come by. I'm glad I'm no longer collecting; it'd be frustrating.
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Post by impulse on Oct 19, 2021 16:08:13 GMT -5
They are not totally unavailable in any capacity in the strict literal sense, but you have to go out of your way to specifically look for them if you want them. You used to be able to grab them on the self in any grocery store, gas station, etc.
They were an inexpensive, mass-market entertainment medium. Now they are an expensive niche specialty item. Just the facts.
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Post by tingramretro on Oct 19, 2021 16:10:29 GMT -5
I don't see that they're unavailable. I'm not even in America, and there are two comic shops within twenty five miles of me. One of them just half an hour away. And of course, there's always eBay shops. Not to be a contrarian, but I live in America and there is but one store that sells comics in my neck of the woods. It's in the only mall hereabouts and serves an area of just about 400 square miles and a population of around 225,000. The next nearest stores that sell comics are 60 and 70 miles distant, one to the west, the other to the north. So... yeah, they're not easy to come by. I'm glad I'm no longer collecting; it'd be frustrating. Bizarre. I'm not exactly in a huge metropolitan area, here in Suffolk, but comics fans are well served. And when I briefly moved to Cheshire a couple of years ago when my wife had a work placement in Manchester Royal Infirmary, we stayed in a relatively small town but it still had a comics shop.
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Post by tingramretro on Oct 19, 2021 16:11:44 GMT -5
They are not totally unavailable in any capacity in the strict literal sense, but you have to go out of your way to specifically look for them if you want them. You used to be able to grab them on the self in any grocery store, gas station, etc. They were an inexpensive, mass-market entertainment medium. Now they are an expensive niche specialty item. Just the facts. In Britain, you can still get comics in many high street stores and newsagents. Just not US imports.
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Post by Prince Hal on Oct 19, 2021 16:16:13 GMT -5
Not to be a contrarian, but I live in America and there is but one store that sells comics in my neck of the woods. It's in the only mall hereabouts and serves an area of just about 400 square miles and a population of around 225,000. The next nearest stores that sell comics are 60 and 70 miles distant, one to the west, the other to the north. So... yeah, they're not easy to come by. I'm glad I'm no longer collecting; it'd be frustrating. Bizarre. I'm not exactly in a huge metropolitan area, here in Suffolk, but comics fans are well served. And when I briefly moved to Cheshire a couple of years ago when my wife had a work placement in Manchester Royal Infirmary, we stayed in a relatively small town but it still had a comics shop. Lovely for you, but most of us rarely can make it across the pond to grab a batch of comics. Hey, market forces are market forces. Cheshire must have a lot of cats who like to smile and read funnybooks to do so.
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Post by impulse on Oct 19, 2021 16:30:33 GMT -5
I like comics. I wish they were ubiquitous and cheap.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2021 16:56:07 GMT -5
I don't think it is reasonable to expect a non-comics reader to drive 25 miles to one of only two specialty shops in an area to buy into a very expensive hobby that is not remotely aimed at newcomers. The direct market is aimed at existing readers, and the big publishers don't do much to make it easy for someone to jump in. Even if they wanted to, how could they? How many # 1s, new origins, renumberings, jumping on points are there? Not to mention comic stores are closing all the time. There are fewer comics made than before. Those that are made are more expensive than ever and sold exclusively in specialty shops. You can buy some back issues online, sure, but it's not easy to consistently get full stories, and keys are already priced at a premium. Not everyone who isn't already a collector is interested in buying lots of back issues and piecing together runs. Really, the logic seems quite similar to saying unless you track down a band's first-pressings on the original LP only you're not a true fan if the band. The statement "comic books are available for purchase" might be technically true, but it's about as unapproachable and unwieldy as anything could be, and expecting movie fans should not only want to be are somewhat obligated to dive into an expensive, dense and convoluted hobby is quite unrealistic IMO. Actually, there aren't fewer comics being published these days. Quite the opposite, in fact. And sales have apparently been steadily rising for a few years now. Sales of comics and graphic novels reached an all time high in 2020, according to some sources. 1.28 billion dollars. When you measure sales in terms of dollars, you have to account for cover price increases. Sure comics may have sold more dollar wise than they have in 20 years, but since they have a higher cover price and there are more big ticket items like omnibuses included in that dollar total they are touting, it is possible that while they are selling more dollar wise in total, they are selling fewer actual units. Those totals they trot out for the health of the industry include everything sold by Diamond-comics, trades, toys, trading cards, apparel, collectibles, etc. not just comics. If you want to compare numbers to measure the health of the industry, you need to compare actual units moved/sold not dollar totals. But comic pundits never do, because the story that those numbers tell is not as rosy as the dollars number. It doesn't even look so rosy if you parse out the dollar totals into just comics and not everything else jumbled with it to make those totals. It's easy to throw numbers around, a lot harder to understand what those numbers actually say instead of the spin put on them when they are bandied about. If cover price is $3 and I sell 20K copies, total revenue is $60K If cover price is $4 and I sell 16K copies total revenue is $64K is a 6% gain in revenue while moving 20% fewer units. That's a shrinking market presenting itself as being healthier, not a healthy market, and not a growth market by any means. -M
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