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Post by tarkintino on Oct 17, 2021 18:03:33 GMT -5
I have a friend and his mom that are big fans of the Marvel movies. Neither have ever read a comic book or any interest for reading a comic book. They love to pump me for information on the upcoming movies and characters and once they watch one will spend hours having me explain all of the history and details and differences. But they will NOT read a comic book. They are still fans of the characters but NOT of comics. I tell them quite often they could never enjoy the Marvel movies today if it wasn't for us kids and fans buying the comics in the past and present. But they are fans by support in the see the movies, buy the DVD's, buy T-Shirts and other side products. I encourage them and understand I adore comics and they don't but it doesn't make their fandom any less true than mine. I just do not and never will understand that. It's like saying you're a Star Wars fan but you've never watched a Star Wars movie and don't want to. Sure, you might read the comics and watch the animated series' or The Mandalorian, but the fact is, at its heart, Star Wars is a movie series. And Spider-Man and Captain America are comic characters. ...but comic character adaptations operate in a medium that (more often than not) never tells audiences that its important or necessary to read the source. Comic adaptations have (almost always) been promoted as somehow "better" than the source (reality over "funny book scribbling"), or a more "complete" experience (not requiring decades of reading endless titles just to get the references), which means all you need to know would be found on the screen, hence the disinterest some have in reading comics.
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Post by tingramretro on Oct 17, 2021 19:01:37 GMT -5
I just do not and never will understand that. It's like saying you're a Star Wars fan but you've never watched a Star Wars movie and don't want to. Sure, you might read the comics and watch the animated series' or The Mandalorian, but the fact is, at its heart, Star Wars is a movie series. And Spider-Man and Captain America are comic characters. ...but comic character adaptations operate in a medium that (more often than not) never tells audiences that its important or necessary to read the source. Comic adaptations have (almost always) been promoted as somehow "better" than the source (reality over "funny book scribbling"), or a more "complete" experience (not requiring decades of reading endless titles just to get the references), which means all you need to know would be found on the screen, hence the disinterest some have in reading comics. Which is ridiculous. It's suggesting that comics are an inferior storytelling medium, which they aren't. If anything, comics are the greatest storytelling medium, the ultimate fusion of words and pictures. It infuriates me that the people who own the IP aren't championing that. The movies and TV shows are often great,but they aren't the source material anymore than the Star Wars comics are the movies. They're just a spinoff. And people need to be made aware of this. I'm sorry if that sounds like gatekeeping, but to me it's the way things are. Star Trek, Star Wars and Doctor Who are primarily movies or TV shows. Captain America and the X-Men are primarily comics characters. That's just how it is. If you have no interest in the comics, you're not a Marvel or DC fan, any more than you're a Star Wars fan if you've never seen Star Wars. There's no difference. And I consider those defending so-called Marvel fans who don't read comics to be traitors to the world of comics. I don't care if it's not politically correct, someone who has spent decades reading comics and someone who's seen half a dozen two hour movie adaptations are not equal in their fandom. Not to me.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2021 19:33:58 GMT -5
I have a friend and his mom that are big fans of the Marvel movies. Neither have ever read a comic book or any interest for reading a comic book. They love to pump me for information on the upcoming movies and characters and once they watch one will spend hours having me explain all of the history and details and differences. But they will NOT read a comic book. They are still fans of the characters but NOT of comics. I tell them quite often they could never enjoy the Marvel movies today if it wasn't for us kids and fans buying the comics in the past and present. But they are fans by support in the see the movies, buy the DVD's, buy T-Shirts and other side products. I encourage them and understand I adore comics and they don't but it doesn't make their fandom any less true than mine. I just do not and never will understand that. It's like saying you're a Star Wars fan but you've never watched a Star Wars movie and don't want to. Sure, you might read the comics and watch the animated series' or The Mandalorian, but the fact is, at its heart, Star Wars is a movie series. And Spider-Man and Captain America are comic characters. Comics are a medium. A way of telling a story. Characters transcend mediums. Storytelling transcends mediums. They are not unique to one medium and do not lose they validity or viability in other mediums. But if we follow your assumption things are only valid in their original medium, then by that token, you cannot be a fan of Achilles if you haven't read the original Homer in ancient Greek then, as translation is adaptation. And you cannot be a Flash Gordon fan if you have only seen the Buster Crabbe serials. And if you want to use your logic in the strictest interpretation, since Superman was intended for a comic strip and not a comic book and the comic book was an adaptation forced by circumstances, if you've read Superman only in comics, you must not really be a fan of Superman. He was created as a comic strip character not a comic book character. And I am sure there are hundreds of thousand of fans of the Peanuts gang who have only seen the TV specials and not read the comic strips that aren't really true fans by your reasoning as well. But you know what, their money spends as well as yours and since there are more of them than there are of strict "original medium" fans only, and since comic producers are in business to make money not to satisfy persnickety comic snobs, they will have as much if not more say in how producers bring their characters to market. Simply put, the idea that a character or a type of story is limited to a single medium and that you can only be a fan of that character in the original medium is ludicrous (whether that medium is comics or any other). You can be a fan of the medium of comics-that's the use of words and images in panels and/or pages to tell a story whatever genre or characters are used. You can be a fan of characters from comics as they appear in whatever medium. And you can be a fan of superheroes only as they appear in comic books. All that's fine and valid approaches. But they are not mutually exclusive, and none of those is the correct way to be a fan while the others are in error. And if comic books had to rely on just revenue from comic books sold for survival since the 70s, they would not have survived. Revenue from licensing and merchandising of comics characters to other mediums has kept comic book publishing viable since at least the 70s, if no earlier. If so called comic snobs had their way and comic characters were limited to comic books only, and new audiences and fans weren't create through other mediums and merchandising, comic characters would have gone extinct with the insolvency of publishing houses that made only comics long ago. It's fine to like comic book characters whatever way you want to. But if you are telling someone they are being a fan the wrong way, the only one in error is the person doing this. But then I am not a true fan because I discovered superheroes as a 3 year old in other mediums before I was able to read and before I ever read a comic, and would have continued to be a fan if I had never seen a comic, so what do I know. -M
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2021 19:41:14 GMT -5
But what I also find ridiculous is that we expect super-hero stories told in other mediums to get people interested in reading comics or interested what the differences from the comics are. Movies have adapted books, plays, and other stories from other mediums from the very beginning, and it is only a tiny fraction of audiences that see those movies that seek out the books or original format to read, or care about what the movies changed. And sure we see memes from book snobs reflecting the attitudes held by book lovers that the books were better, and in many cases they are, but in most cases, movie audiences don't care, never cared, and will never look at the book. Because they are movie audiences, not book audiences, and if they are "fans" of anything it is of the movies.
And how many times have you seen people glazing over as someone points out everything the movie changed from the book, and what got left out, and on and on, and honestly, no one outside of the fan of the book cares. But somehow, we as comic fans have come to expect it will be different for comics. That comics are such special snowflakes that they will magically change the entrenched and demonstrated behavior patterns of movie audiences since Hollywood became a thing because those super-hero movies will make comic book fans out of all those audiences and they will suddenly care what the original comics were like and want to hear everything the movies changed or got wrong.
My mother always was concerned with me reading comics as a kid because she thought they would harm my ability to distinguish between fantasy and reality. Maybe she had a point...
-M
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Post by impulse on Oct 18, 2021 0:30:04 GMT -5
Wow, we are far past stretching it and are well into histrionics. "Traitors to the world of comics?" Really? Respectfully, that is absolutely ridiculous, and if that is what you tell movie fans they are, it's worse than gatekeeping. It's basically chasing people away from the medium.
By this logic, am I not a music fan because I'm not listening to manually-pressed wax records on my wooden hand-cranked record player? Or is that even far back enough? Do I need to to beat rocks together in a cave while Ugg beats sticks together before I'm a real music fan?
Using the Star Wars example, there is far, far more Star Wars content then 3 40-year-old movies at this point. You could argue that people who have only seen the three original films and refused any of the subsequent novels, comics, TV shows, cartoons, specials and, what is it now, 8 additional movies, video games,etc... are the ones who aren't really fans of Star Wars. They are just fans 3 a tiny drop in the SW bucket.
Sounds ridiculous, right? Let people like what they like. No one is taking away your comics just because there are movies now, too.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2021 1:03:44 GMT -5
But what I also find ridiculous is that we expect super-hero stories told in other mediums to get people interested in reading comics or interested what the differences from the comics are.
If that movies to comics ratio worked, Black Panther would be at the top of Diamond....
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,708
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Post by shaxper on Oct 18, 2021 5:03:40 GMT -5
This conversation is dangerously close to getting personal, folks. Let's remember we are supposed to be having fun.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Oct 18, 2021 8:56:01 GMT -5
I would assume at the vast sales most modern comic book movies are having as oppose to the lack of increase sales in comics (despite those that are buying/selling key issues in speculation) that the vast majority of comic book movie goers have absolutely no interest in the source material.
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Post by brutalis on Oct 18, 2021 9:47:05 GMT -5
I would assume at the vast sales most modern comic book movies are having as oppose to the lack of increase sales in comics (despite those that are buying/selling key issues in speculation) that the vast majority of comic book movie goers have absolutely no interest in the source material. Agreed! At the movies you see kids, teens, adults from their 20's through the elderly. The movies are ALL AGES and appeal to the general masses. Comic books have so isolated themselves and focus ENTIRELY upon a very small select shrinking fan base. Add in the price value that a 10 minute read for a comic book nearly matches the cost of a 2 hour movie. Which one are most of the general public gonna choose? Don't have to be a rocket scientist...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2021 10:25:17 GMT -5
I would assume at the vast sales most modern comic book movies are having as oppose to the lack of increase sales in comics (despite those that are buying/selling key issues in speculation) that the vast majority of comic book movie goers have absolutely no interest in the source material. Agreed! At the movies you see kids, teens, adults from their 20's through the elderly. The movies are ALL AGES and appeal to the general masses. Comic books have so isolated themselves and focus ENTIRELY upon a very small select shrinking fan base. Add in the price value that a 10 minute read for a comic book nearly matches the cost of a 2 hour movie. Which one are most of the general public gonna choose? Don't have to be a rocket scientist... So what if a movie goer is interested in the original source material-where can they get it? If it's a book, you can probably find a fresh printing on the shelves at the local grocery store, at a box store like Walmart, etc. you know places where people actually shop and can see it and buy it in the regular course of their lives without having to find and get to a specialty destination. And if they saw an adaptation of say a Colson Whitehead novel, they can find the specific story being adapted and read that without much effort. But someone who enjoys a comic book movie-where do they go to find the source material? They have to find a specialty shop (if there is one in driving distance for them), hope that the thing they are looking for is in print (not likely since trade paperbacks are rarely evergreen or kept in print, and there aren't always enough preorders to support a new edition coming into print of something that is source material, and that's not even addressing the elephant in the room that there is no direct correlation between the screen story and a comic story. If I watch The Maltese Falcon, I know what to look for to read the source material. If I liked Batman '89, what's the direct correlation for source material that I can read? Not years worth of comics by multiple creators-what's the direct source material? How about Spider-Man Far from Home? Or Wonder Woman? Aquaman? Avengers End Game? There is no direct source material for an audience member interested in checking it out to find and be able to see for themselves what is accurate or not? The comic industry no longer produces material to find a discovery audience, doesn't packages their material in a way that someone who might be interested in the source material from a movie can find and read it with reasonable effort, and doesn't put their material where possible interested audience members could find it to discover it. Comics have subscribed to the fallacy of if you build it, they will come, and have clung to the idea that they can thrive by courting an audience comprised of only hardcore fans who already read comics, and neither of those assumptions have proven to be valid. The world doesn't work that way, despite what some may think. If comic publishers want to find and build an audience, they have to do more than put their characters in other mediums and keep on keeping on producing and packaging the same ole fare sold only to the direct market. And just putting stuff available digitally is not the answer, because again, customers will only find it if they are specifically looking for it, and that's not a successful recipe for finding new customers and creating or sustaining growth. So while everyone is pointing fingers at movie audiences for not becoming fans of the original source material, there should be three fingers pointed back at the comic industry and comics fans for clinging to attitudes and product formats that are antithetical to success in a mass market and for not finding a strategy that works to bring customers into the fold. -M
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Post by impulse on Oct 18, 2021 10:52:52 GMT -5
I think the issue remains that most source material for these movies is in a decades-old serialized periodical format. We all came up on that format and have fondness for it, but it's a relic from another era. For many reasons discussed at length in other threads in this very forum, the direct market model is not conducive to growing the audience and bringing in new readers, the economics of printed periodical direct market comics are not very competitive with mass-market entertainment.
In terms of dollar per minute of entertainment, comics are a very expensive medium in 2021. I was essentially priced out*. I am not in any way attacking creators or saying they don't deserve to be paid or local shops supported or anything like that.
The simple fact is Marvel and DC ongoing comics are a niche product in 2021 and are priced accordingly. It's not feasible or reasonable to expect a fan of the Marvel movies born in the 21st century to track down hundreds(thousands?) of likely out of print or inconsistently available TPBs or expensive back issues of funny books printed when their parents or even grandparents were kids. That is not even going into how convoluted and impenetrable the stories are after decades of issues by dozens of creators.
THAT SAID, I would LOVE to see Marvel publish a series of bookstore trades that is basically "THE ORIGINAL STORIES OF THE AVENGERS!!" as a curated reprinting of key issues and runs, in order, and labeled neatly as volume 1, volume 2, etc. Have all the stats of the original issues included in the appendix for anyone who is curious, but that might get some sales in 2021. The key emphasis would be the story being curated with a selective inclusion and order, and CLEAR LABELING.
*That's not the only reason I dropped, but if they were still a quarter to a dollar I'd have likely kept procrastinating about cancelling them. At four bucks a pop, though? Nah.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2021 10:58:40 GMT -5
I think a lot of the issue remains that most of the source material for the movies is in a decades-old serialized periodical format. We all came up on that format and have fondness for it, but it's a relic from another era. For many reasons discussed at length in other threads in this very forum, the direct market model is not conducive to growing the audience and bringing in new readers, the economics of printed periodical direct market comics are not very competitive with mass-market entertainment. In terms of dollar per minute of entertainment, comics are a very expensive medium in 2021. I grew up on them and have a fondness for them and was essentially priced out*. I am not in any way attaching creators or anyone who still likes comics. I am not saying the creators don't deserve to be paid or local shops supported or anything like that. The simple fact of the matter is that the Marvel and DC ongoing comics are a niche market in 2021 and are priced accordingly. It's not feasible or reasonable to expect a fan of the Marvel movies born in the 21st century to track down hundreds(thousands?) of likely out of print, inconsistently available or highly priced back issues of funny books printed when their parents or even grandparents were kids. That is not even going into how convoluted and impenetrable the stories are after decades of issues by dozens of creators. THAT SAID, I would LOVE to see Marvel publish a series of bookstore trades that is basically "THE ORIGINAL STORIES OF THE AVENGERS!!" as a curated reprinting of key issues and runs, in order, and labeled neatly as volume 1, volume 2, etc. Have all the stats of the original issues included in the appendix for anyone who is curious, but that might get some sales in 2021. *That's not the only reason I dropped, but if they were still a quarter to a dollar I'd have likely kept procrastinating about cancelling them. At four bucks a pop, though? Nah. my hope, is that Marvel's new partnership with Penguin Random House bears fruit outside of just distribution and that PHR can work with Marvel to create products that are viable in the 21st century marketplace-not as content creators, not in terms of packaging, formats, marketing and selling of the vast library of content Marvel has to create products that can appeal to a wider audience and is available where those audiences actually might purchase them. However, that partnership seems to be off to a rocky start in terms of actual distribution of the comics, so we'll have to wait and see. -M
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Post by impulse on Oct 18, 2021 11:14:56 GMT -5
I am not sure how much of a thing this still is, but one of my earliest comic book related purchases was a small paperpack size black and white reprinting of some X-Men stories I bought from the Scholastic Book Fair at school. With as red hot as the MCU is now, something like that could help, to give one very limited example.
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Post by badwolf on Oct 18, 2021 12:34:56 GMT -5
I am not sure how much of a thing this still is, but one of my earliest comic book related purchases was a small paperpack size black and white reprinting of some X-Men stories I bought from the Scholastic Book Fair at school. With as red hot as the MCU is now, something like that could help, to give one very limited example. They weren't my first, but I remember having some DC ones: Superman, Wonder Woman, Legion, World's Finest.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 18, 2021 12:44:40 GMT -5
I would assume at the vast sales most modern comic book movies are having as oppose to the lack of increase sales in comics (despite those that are buying/selling key issues in speculation) that the vast majority of comic book movie goers have absolutely no interest in the source material. True. Can't blame them either, as the two things are quite different even if they cover similar subjects. I quite enjoyed the Shadow comics published by DC, but never sought out the radio shows.
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