dave
Junior Member
Posts: 44
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Post by dave on Jul 22, 2021 8:19:40 GMT -5
When I saw the words "Black Widow costume", the gray suit with the collar and the wrist shooters is what popped in my head, so I voted for Miller's design. Might be more a function of when I started reading comics, but there you go.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 22, 2021 8:33:48 GMT -5
It looks like the base for a costume more than an actual costume in the image posted. You have to add the gauntlets, belts, and (most importantly) the jacket for it to really reach its potential. I think the jacket also helps to “tame” the collar. And the spider on the back (but not the chest) takes it a little too far into “costumed super hero” territory, if that makes sense. But, I’m not even sure that was Miller and not a later addition, and besides, the jacket fixes that. The short hair, I think, works with the design but wouldn’t work with Romita’s. Miller's design was to turn her into a ninja and his fixation with short hair (he gave the same hair cut to Carrie Kelly, in The Dark Knight Returns). I hated the costume and he also seemed to draw her about 3-4 inches shorter than previously depicted.
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Post by Mister Spaceman on Jul 22, 2021 9:02:23 GMT -5
Marvel Fanfare #10; the Black Widow story with Perez on art. Storyline ran through #13. Later reprinted in Black Widow: Web of Intrigue, in 1999. Thanks! I'll have to track this down - that's some primo Perez!
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 22, 2021 9:46:08 GMT -5
Marvel Fanfare #10; the Black Widow story with Perez on art. Storyline ran through #13. Later reprinted in Black Widow: Web of Intrigue, in 1999. Thanks! I'll have to track this down - that's some primo Perez! Perez co-scripted, with Ralph Macchio, though he didn't do one chapter, of one issue and it is noticeable. The original Marvel Fanfare issues are pretty pricey now, with the current nonsense. Web of Intrigue is a bit more affordable, though t was done on cheaper paper. the Fanfare issues include some nice Jungle Book stories, from Mary Jo Duffy and Gil Kane, adapting Kipling. The hardcover Web of Intrigue, released when Black Widow turned up in Iron Man 2, reprints the whole thing, plus, Bizarre Adventures (formerly Marvel Preview) #25, with a Ralph Macchio and Paul Gulacy Black Widow story (which includes Humphrey Bogart and Michael Caine, after a fashion). Gulacy also did a sweet Black Widow portfolio, at the time of that story...
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Post by dbutler69 on Jul 22, 2021 9:51:25 GMT -5
It looks like the base for a costume more than an actual costume in the image posted. You have to add the gauntlets, belts, and (most importantly) the jacket for it to really reach its potential. I think the jacket also helps to “tame” the collar. And the spider on the back (but not the chest) takes it a little too far into “costumed super hero” territory, if that makes sense. But, I’m not even sure that was Miller and not a later addition, and besides, the jacket fixes that. The short hair, I think, works with the design but wouldn’t work with Romita’s. But Frank Miller's original design did not have any of those things. They got added later on, by other artists, I think. I like it better with the gauntlets and belt, but I hate the jacket. I don't like the short hair, either, but I'll admit it's practical. Then again, ponytails are practical for crimefighting (I see lots of female athletes wearing ponytails) but I can't really think of any female superhero with a ponytail, off the top of my head.
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Post by Bronze age andy on Jul 22, 2021 9:55:34 GMT -5
The Black Widow Marvel Fanfare stories are now also available in her 2nd Epic Collection.
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Josh
Full Member
Posts: 111
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Post by Josh on Jul 22, 2021 9:59:06 GMT -5
It looks like the base for a costume more than an actual costume in the image posted. You have to add the gauntlets, belts, and (most importantly) the jacket for it to really reach its potential. I think the jacket also helps to “tame” the collar. And the spider on the back (but not the chest) takes it a little too far into “costumed super hero” territory, if that makes sense. But, I’m not even sure that was Miller and not a later addition, and besides, the jacket fixes that. The short hair, I think, works with the design but wouldn’t work with Romita’s. But Frank Miller's original design did not have any of those things. They got added later on, by other artists, I think. Well then, I guess I should change my vote to other, as I don’t like it without those features.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 22, 2021 10:28:28 GMT -5
It looks like the base for a costume more than an actual costume in the image posted. You have to add the gauntlets, belts, and (most importantly) the jacket for it to really reach its potential. I think the jacket also helps to “tame” the collar. And the spider on the back (but not the chest) takes it a little too far into “costumed super hero” territory, if that makes sense. But, I’m not even sure that was Miller and not a later addition, and besides, the jacket fixes that. The short hair, I think, works with the design but wouldn’t work with Romita’s. But Frank Miller's original design did not have any of those things. They got added later on, by other artists, I think. I like it better with the gauntlets and belt, but I hate the jacket. I don't like the short hair, either, but I'll admit it's practical. Then again, ponytails are practical for crimefighting (I see lots of female athletes wearing ponytails) but I can't really think of any female superhero with a ponytail, off the top of my head. MMA fighter Eric Paulson would dispute that... Paulson fought at the World Combat Championship, in 1995, one of the early attempts to rival the UFC. He was in the striking division (it was split between strikers and grapplers, with the two winner of each division facing each other in the final) and had been advised to cut his hair, since hair pulling was legal, but didn't want to do it. The end result was that his opponents used it to pin him down and deliver damage. It probably cost him the striker division win, since he was a more rounded fighter than James Waring (though he was an IBF Cruiserweight Boxing Champion), who was trained as a grappler, but was in the striker division. He was a favorite to win the tournament; but, he couldn't execute his game because of the hair pulling. After that, he fought in the Shooto organization and elsewhere with short hair. Every other MMA fighter followed suit, with either short hair, a buzz cut, or by shaving their head.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 22, 2021 10:43:43 GMT -5
ps The UFC, originally, heavily favored grapplers, as the mat was soft and made it hard to provide a stable base for kicking. Strikers became reluctant to participate, as grapplers swept the tournaments, until Marco Ruas, in UFC 7, won his final match by mixing kicks and grappling. The World Combat Championships, in an attempt to draw more strikers, split the competition into a striking division, where submissions were not allowed, and a grappling division, where strikes and submissions were allowed. the idea was that it would be more exciting, since grappling often ended in a stalemate on the mat, with the two fighters jockeying for position, trying to exploit an opening. By contrast, strikers would be constantly throwing punches and kicks, so there was more action. Strikers were allowed to take down an opponent, but they could not apply submission holds. Grapplers were allowed to punch on the mat, which meant that they had fewer restrictions and were still favored to win. Paulson entered as a striker, even though he fought for the Shooto organization, in Japan. Shooto was an early MMA group, started by pro wrestler Satoru Sayama (the original Tiger Mask, in pro wrestling), grew out of submission wrestling. Sayama had trained in submission in the New Japan dojo, with catch wrestlers Karl Gotch and Billy Robinson and had wrestled in the UK (as Sammy Lee), where all of their pros were trained in catch wrestling. Paulson was a top Lit heavyweight and later the champion of that division, in Shooto. he had trained with Dan Inosanto and his background was Bruce Lee's Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jeet Kun Do. Therefore, he was a pretty well rounded fighter, in both striking and grappling. the grappling division was won by Renzo Gracie, of the famous Gracie Jiu-Jitsu family (son of Carlson Gracie and cousin to Royce and Rickson Gracie, of the UFC and Brazil's Vale Tudo) James Waring was a boxer (IBF Cruiserweight Champion), but had no background in grappling. In the final, Renzo Gracie quickly neutralized Waring's striking ability and submitted him. Paulson's loss was blamed completely on not cutting his hair.
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Post by zaku on Jul 22, 2021 12:04:35 GMT -5
And what about this one?
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Post by dbutler69 on Jul 22, 2021 13:35:13 GMT -5
But Frank Miller's original design did not have any of those things. They got added later on, by other artists, I think. Well then, I guess I should change my vote to other, as I don’t like it without those features. Nah. My philosophy here is that slight variations in the costume (which I consider those) still count as the same basic costume design. It's your call though, of course.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 22, 2021 13:37:05 GMT -5
And what about this one? Well, the name was fitting, even if nothing else was. Thank Kirby that never came off! They had enough issues with the CBS stuff.
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Josh
Full Member
Posts: 111
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Post by Josh on Jul 22, 2021 15:14:35 GMT -5
Well then, I guess I should change my vote to other, as I don’t like it without those features. Nah. My philosophy here is that slight variations in the costume (which I consider those) still count as the same basic costume design. It's your call though, of course. Yeah, I don’t think they’re that slight. I assume the reason Miller’s is so barebones is because a ninja wouldn’t have gauntlets, that bulky belt and a jacket. I think it changes enough of his vision to feel like a different design (even if it is just building on what’s already there).
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 22, 2021 15:57:36 GMT -5
This was the Daredevil costume, to go along with Angela Bowie's Black Widow..... Rex Smith isn't looking so bad, anymore! Well, apart from looking like he raided a Danskin outlet store... This is the costume Angela put together to try to test for Wonder Woman... Bowie (Angela, not the talented one) actually optioned the rights for daredevil and Black Widow; but, was unable to sell it to a studio and it never got past these concept pictures. Can't understand why, given the obvious quality costumes and her extensive background as an actress and performer. Oh, wait....that was David who had all of that. I can imagine the meetings... "So, wait, David's not involved?" "No, this is my project." "Well, good luck with that; let me know how it turns out! We'll do lunch some time; have your people call my people! The receptionist will validate your parking! Bye-bye!" The 70s were a weird time for Marvel, especially in retrospect, from the vantage point of the MCU.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 22, 2021 16:00:10 GMT -5
ps, I've never been 100% sure; but, it looks like Daredevil's hood ends above the forehead and the rest of the facemask is just make-up.
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