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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 25, 2019 23:17:05 GMT -5
There were heels I wanted to see beat, but I never "hated" a wrestler. There were some I didn't care to see wrestle on the show, with Larry Zbysko being the biggest one. His matches were boring, with the endless stalling outside the ring, the rather basic wrestling sequences he did, the same promos again and again; just not an exciting wrestler. He was a big deal with Bruno; but, without him he just didn't really add much to a program. I never cared much for him on commentary. His stint in Georgia was just bland and I was happy to see him go and he added nothing to the AWA, other than marrying Verne's daughter, which got him the belt (which is more than being related ever did for Greg).
The Sheik (Ed Farhat, not the Iron Sheik) was another I could do without; he was passed and just stuck people with forks and pencils and bladed; even for the Poffos. Same for Abdullah the Butcher. Another bleeder and a real POS, as a human being. Nothing but a carny.
Hogan war out his welcome by '85, with me, as I had seen his match and it didn't vary. Never cared for Greg Valentine in the WWF but was fine with him in Crockett. Same with Bob Orton. Saw Orton in '82, for Vince Sr; but, he was stuck with one of their lower card guys and had to carry the damn thing. Wasn't much better under Jr, except he was a good stooge for Piper. never really got to work any programs of his own. Contrast that with him in Knoxville, Mid-Atlantic or Southwest, where he was fantastic. Check out the match he and Adrian Adonis had, in Houston, to crown the new world champion, for Southwest Championship Wrestling, when they were on USA Cable. Terrific match, from two great ring workers.
Only guys I enjoyed watching in the WWA (Indianapolis) were Wilbur Snyder and Spike Huber & Steve Regal, as the Young Lions tag-team.
I loved Bob Backlund, under Sr. Great All-American babyface wrestler and shooter. Great matches with anyone, freakishly strong, believable work. His stuff with Snuka & Muraco were off the charts. He didn't fit the "sports entertainment" era and didn't care for him as a psycho heel, though he was a better heel than most of the ones they had.
Jericho has always done good work. Gets a bit annoying on the mike (and his podcast); but, most of the time it is intentional. He was terrific in mexico and Japan, before he came into WCW. As the Thrillseekers, with Lance Storm, he was green (both were); but, they were a good babyface tag-team and Corny and the Heavenly Bodies really helped them along.
Jarrett has never done anything for me and I saw some of his earlier days, in Memphis. He was bad then; skinny, little charisma, bad promos, bad punch. He got better technically; but, never thought much of his promos and never saw him as a main event star. Better heel than babyface.
Triple H I saw as Terra Ryzing and Jean Paul Levesque, in WCW and HHH in WWF. Good worker, smart guy, great politician. Gets real heat, as a heel, as behind the scenes stuff adds to the performance. That said, as Corny has remarked, he's the guy who wrestles the top guy; not the one who carries the company. leaving that aside, I think he is a brighter future for the WWE, once Vince is truly out of the picture. He has an affinity for classic wrestling and angles and NXT reflects that. He's also put together a great training program, though it has the problem of creating assembly-line wrestlers, rather like Shooter's editorial reign created assembly line comics from interchangeable writers and artists. The only way he is being fired by the WWE is because he cheated on Stephanie and they get a divorce. Ask Spike Huber about how that can F-up your career.
Brock came up about the time I withdrew from wrestling. Don't really have an opinion, except that, in his (ghost-written) book, he came across as a dumb jock a-hole and I haven't seen much to alter that impression. However, he is the only legitimate draw in wrestling, aside from the Rock's occasional guest appearances.
Shawn Michaels may have been the best worker of the 90s; but, he was a POS, as a human being and he may be "born again;" but, I haven't seen a lot of evidence of living his alleged faith. If it hadn't been for Davy Boy Smith rescuing him from a Marine that was beating the stuffing out of him, he might not have lived long enough to be "born again."
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2019 0:34:57 GMT -5
Good points Cody ... I always did not care for DX Generation ... with Triple H and Shawn Michaels running the show and all that and I would have to admit that Shawn Michaels was a good worker in the ring and all that; but his personality troubles me and I just have a hard time enjoying him. When Sean Waltman, Chyna, Road Dogg, and Billy Gunn added to the mix ... I just felt that this group became somewhat a showoff and a nuisance (not the right word here) and that gad-awful theme music really started to bother me greatly and that's when I started to dislike Triple H and ended up not enjoying him at all. Everytime I turn onto RAW ... he makes an appearance and I wish WWE stopped doing that and then Michaels got into the act and I started disliking him too. I just can't get over it back then and even today Generation DX still bothers me and that whole KLIQ thing had so much power in the WWE and that's when the (May 1996) mid-90's ... I stopped watching WWE on a regular basis.
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Post by wickedmountain on Nov 26, 2019 1:56:00 GMT -5
My Top 5 Hated Wrestlers1) Bob Backlund 2) Jeff Jarrett 3) Chris Jericho 4) Brock Lesnar 5) Triple H They are all one EQUAL terms ...I just can't stand these guys at all. Chris Jericho blocked me on twitter lol , Brock is also a bully who hurt Jim Cornette's wife on purpose and had been bragging about it all day. he didn't even grow up a wrestling fan Brock i mean he's a joke !. I'm friends with Jerry Jarrett in real life Jeff's dad , But yea Jeff can be a dick some wrestlers have said this . Bob yea he sucks never should of been champion ugh. Triple HHH has a big ego that's his problem ugh.
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Post by wickedmountain on Nov 26, 2019 1:58:57 GMT -5
Good points Cody ... I always did not care for DX Generation ... with Triple H and Shawn Michaels running the show and all that and I would have to admit that Shawn Michaels was a good worker in the ring and all that; but his personality troubles me and I just have a hard time enjoying him. When Sean Waltman, Chyna, Road Dogg, and Billy Gunn added to the mix ... I just felt that this group became somewhat a showoff and a nuisance (not the right word here) and that gad-awful theme music really started to bother me greatly and that's when I started to dislike Triple H and ended up not enjoying him at all. Everytime I turn onto RAW ... he makes an appearance and I wish WWE stopped doing that and then Michaels got into the act and I started disliking him too. I just can't get over it back then and even today Generation DX still bothers me and that whole KLIQ thing had so much power in the WWE and that's when the (May 1996) mid-90's ... I stopped watching WWE on a regular basis. I Was watching USWA and Smoky mountain back then Smoky went out of business though in 1995 . Yea Shawn was a dumbass back in the mid 90s lol.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2019 9:34:32 GMT -5
I can't say I have been excited about Backlund in my years as a wrestling fan, but I appreciate his talents. I quite liked the maniacal heel era, the way he lectured fans about US history, the big words he used, etc. In one WWF Magazine issue, he did a review of the dictionary! You might have felt inclined to buy a dictionary after that.
I appreciate Chris Jericho's talents, and the way he has reinvented himself at times.
I am a fan of Shawn Michaels. From 1993 to 1997, I voted for him as Match of the Year in the PWI awards (against Marty Jannetty on Raw, the WM X ladder match, the SummerSlam 1995 ladder match, the WM XII Iron Man match, and the first HIAC match).
I did appreciate Jarrett during his WWF run, and I did enjoy the feud he had with Razor Ramon. I got tired of seeing him as a seemingly-eternal world champion in TNA.
I like Triple H. I like his craft. I was always immersed in anything he did, face or heel. He still makes wrestling believable to me, and I like the businessman, too.
Brock Lesnar? Tough one. Great talent, but I can't tell where the real person ends and the wrestling personality begins. On his profile DVD ("Here Comes The Pain"), he talked about not caring what others thought, not wanting to make friends, enjoying pain, etc. On those, particularly the 'enjoying pain', was that the man, the wrestler or both? Hard to tell with him.
I will make one defence of Lesnar's schedule: during the Monday Night Wars, we did get spoilt a little by seeing the world champion on TV frequently. But what about prior to that? I don't really remember Bret Hart, during his first WWF Championship reign, appearing on Raw a lot. During the Federation Era, it was very rare to see Hulk Hogan on one of the syndicated shows. Back during those eras, the world champion, at least in the WWF, seemed to be more a special attraction than anything. Maybe that's the logic with Brock Lesnar.
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Post by wickedmountain on Nov 26, 2019 11:03:44 GMT -5
I Did enjoy Shawn's ladder match with Razor Ramon ( Scott Hall ) , um the midnight rockers there original name was a okay tag team but no where near as great as the Rock n Roll Express !
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2019 11:06:53 GMT -5
I enjoyed the WM X ladder match. I do feel their SummerSlam '95 rematch is superior. It's rare for a "sequel" to be as good.
Had Ramon remained with the WWF, I wonder if we'd have ever seen Ladder Match 3?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2019 11:07:48 GMT -5
I Did enjoy Shawn's ladder match with Razor Ramon ( Scott Hall ) , um the midnight rockers there original name was a okay tag team but no where near as great as the Rock n Roll Express ! Rock and Roll Express is far better than the Rockers ... I really never embraced the Rockers at all.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2019 11:09:13 GMT -5
I enjoyed the WM X ladder match. I do feel their SummerSlam '95 rematch is superior. It's rare for a "sequel" to be as good. Had Ramon remained with the WWF, I wonder if we'd have ever seen Ladder Match 3? It would happen ... Ladder Match 3 would succeed because of the popularity of it and the fans would loved it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2019 11:10:22 GMT -5
My favourite ladder match is Hulk Hogan vs. Andre the Giant.
It happened. Honestly. When I played Smackdown vs. Raw 2006...
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Post by wickedmountain on Nov 26, 2019 11:43:30 GMT -5
Found this little bit ago enjoy
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 26, 2019 13:09:47 GMT -5
In regards Bob Backlund, I'm curious what exposure people had to his matches; did you only see his work in the 90s, under Vince Jr? Did you see him (or watch any of his matches on Youtube or elsewhere) under Sr, as champion? Did you see him from the early or mid-part of his title reign? Did you only see him at the end, when he dropped the belt to the Iron Sheik, and then was gone soon after? Have you seen anything of his work before he was champion?
I kind of feel that many fans who saw him at all, did so in the 90s, as a heel, compared to those who saw him as champion or earlier. In the 90s, he was a goofy, conservative nutjob, who "snapped" and berated the fans for their manners and intelligence and used submissions and heel tactics in his matches. Before that, he was an All-American wrestler, a college standout, who was a technical master, in the old tradition. He was humble, did the right thing, spoke of virtuous things, fought off evil men and monsters and did it through sheer wrestling. He could convincingly wrestle and beat guys like Big John Studd or Superstar Graham because he could out-wrestle them and he would show off his legitimate strength. From my experience, not a lot of modern fans saw that era. Little footage exists of him before becoming champion, since promoters taped over masters; so, good luck finding matches of his from Florida or the AWA.
He definitely was not a fit for the Vince Jr WWF circus. Bob was a straight-forward kind of guy, who went out and gave you a wrestling match. Now, for full disclosure, I love technical wrestlers. As a kid, I watched Olympic wrestling and when amateur stuff would appear on ABC's Wide World of Sports. When I started to see professional wrestling, the guys I liked were the strong technical babyfaces, like Jack Brisco, Wilbur Snyder, Bret Hart, Ronnie Garvin (pre-Crockett, Garvin would put on a mix of high technical wrestling and brawling), and Ricky Steamboat. The babyface's job was to be the clean cut, humble good guy, who got fired up when the heel pushed the cheating too far. I loved Superman comics. I liked virtuous heroes. I didn't really appreciate some of the heels until I was older (and saw better ones) to really appreciate how they controlled the matches and how they were the central mix in the angles.
Bob was the template of the old NWA travelling champion: a popular, top-rated shooter, who could make other people look good, while staying over with fans. However, that type of champion was an anomaly in the WWF, under either Vince. Sr used ethnic babyfaces to draw big ethnic crowds and heels only as transitional champions. Superstar Billy Graham kind of changed that, as he was a heel that fans loved to see and became kind of a 'tweener. Backlund was a guy that Sr loved, loved his work, loved his attitude, loved his ability to work with anyone. Graham was extremely limited as a wrestler and needed good opponents. Backlund made him look good and Sr liked how the WWF fans reacted to him. So, he put the title on him and had him face every villain and monster that came through, knocking them off with sheer wrestling ability. And he drew. He had tons of sellouts for MSG and other WWF arenas. Problem was, Sr kept him in that slot when the fans were indicating it was time for a change. Backlund, in the latter days of his reign, had grown stale. After the program with Snuka, he lacked for great opponents and recycled old ones. he did have a good series with Masked Superstar (Bill Eadie). The Iron Sheik thing could have been a longer rivalry; All-American wrestler vs heel Iranian wrestler. Both had standout amateur backgrounds, both were feared shooters in pro wrestling. US vs Iran. Perfect. But, Vince Jr was now in charge and wanted the belt off Backlund and on someone flashier. He wanted Backlund to die his hair black and become a heel. Backlund said "no." So, they took the belt off of him in a contested finish, he wrestled a rematch or two and a couple of other bouts, then left, as Hogan came in and they started the circus era. Backlund stayed out of wrestling, for a few years, until Verne was able to recruit him to work some of the beginning Pro Wrestling USA shows. However, he only did that on a limited basis. He did some tours of Japan, in the 90s, with both WAR and UWFI. He came back to the WWF for his heel run.
I can see not being into Bob's work, especially if you only saw him in the 90s or prefer flashier performers. Bob isn't a Rock or Ric Flair. I can see not being a fan in 1983, when he had beaten everybody and was facing the same guys, again. I can see maybe not liking him, compared to Bruno. I definitely understand the people who wanted Snuka to win the title from him. However, if you watch some of his matches from 1979-1982, he really gets the crowd going, with wrestling. He doesn't have the same match with everyone and he looks credible in the fight. Fans came out to see him. He was more a product of the 60s and 70s and was lost in the 80s, as he didn't evolve with the changes in presentation and wasn't comfortable as a heel and no one wanted babyfaces like him, anymore. I think the 90s character was the best he could achieve with a heel character; but, I don't think his angles were well booked (very little was, in that era) and I don't think he really got to show what he could do or just what he did wasn't what modern fans had been conditioned to cheer.
Dave Meltzer, in the Wrestling Observer, once did an examination of the MSG sellouts under the various champions and Backlund had more than most and as much as Bruno. That was over 5 years, with various opponents. Sure, in latter days it was due to bouts with guys like Snuka, who the fans were going ape over, or the more mobile Muraco. Still, a lot of people paid to see Backlund.
I think Kurt Angle was probably the best amateur to transition to a pro wrestler and be successful. He was an Olympic Gold medalist, who took to pro wrestling like a duck to water, understood how to present what he could do in a performance environment and play heel or babyface. He could jazz it up and he could put on a technical display, if he got someone like Benoit, who could keep up with him. He also pretty handily beat Lesnar, in a backstage shoot, despite the weight difference (Brock was an NCAA champion; but, he wasn't an international competitor).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2019 13:20:29 GMT -5
To answer your question, I've only seen Backlund's matches from the WWF (and some WWWF bouts).
None of it is bad. In fact, it's good. I can't say he's my favourite wrestler, but that's no bad thing.
I like brawling, technical wrestling and a limited amount of high flying. Hardcore doesn't appeal to me. But I like the pure wrestling, too. Arn Anderson vs. 'Lord' Steven Regal at SuperBrawl IV is a fantastic match. I love the WM XII Iron Man match. Some of the longer matches Rick Rude had in WCW appeal to me. And there are definitely Backlund matches I like even if he isn't my favourite.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 26, 2019 13:42:59 GMT -5
Found this little bit ago enjoy Toronto was a long hotbed of wrestling and Tunney's Maple Leaf shows were the cream of it.His favoring of a wrestler went a long way to making him NWA champion. Thesz and Rogers had long associations with him, Bruno did, Andre, the Sheik, Whipper Billy Watson (Canadian hero and NWA champion), Flair and others. Jack Tunney going in with Vince is probably the key component of the WWF dominating the Canadian scene. Only read about Mosca, in the magazines, when he was in the Carolinas. He was part of the celebration, in the first Starrcade, when Flair regained the belt. there are photos of Flair riding on Mosca's shoulders, as he carries him around the ring. They tried to push his son, Angelo Jr, but it was a disaster and he didn't wrestle very long. The match they show, you can see Ivan Koloff, one of the forgotten WWF champions; the man who beat Bruno. When he won, there was dead silence in Madison Square Garden and they got him out of the ring fairly quickly. Of course, he dropped it to Morales soon after. Ironically, Koloff was actually a Canadian, from Quebec (real name Oreal Perras). He wrestled, at one point, as Red McNulty. Bad Leroy Brown would later wrestle as Elijah Akeem, as part of the Zambuie Express. His partner, Kareem Muhammad, had previously wrestled as Ray Candy. Brown/Akeem was the more accomplished of the pair, as a singles star, all over, including Florida, the Mid-South, the AWA and elsewhere. Candy had wrestled more in the South. Kind of weird to see Ole without Gene, in that timeframe. I've noticed, from Youtube, that canadian talk shows seemed a bit more low key than a lot of American stuff, of the same era. Local talk shows were often dull, low key shows; but, the Canadian ones, that I have seen, manage to still be interesting (of course, I was interested in the subjects). There is one on Youtube where Patrick McGoohan discusses the prisoner that treats the audience as intelligent adults and was fascinating, as McGoohan spoke more in depth than he had for the British press or in America. Here, they are kayfabing; but, the host is also putting out the inference that it is a show; but, is respectful of the profession and they make the apt comparisons to the showmanship in other, "legitimate" sports. Harlem Globetrotters is a correct example, but it is also a work, as the games are played to show off their routines, not a competitive game.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 26, 2019 13:48:50 GMT -5
To answer your question, I've only seen Backlund's matches from the WWF (and some WWWF bouts). None of it is bad. In fact, it's good. I can't say he's my favourite wrestler, but that's no bad thing. I like brawling, technical wrestling and a limited amount of high flying. Hardcore doesn't appeal to me. But I like the pure wrestling, too. Arn Anderson vs. 'Lord' Steven Regal at SuperBrawl IV is a fantastic match. I love the WM XII Iron Man match. Some of the longer matches Rick Rude had in WCW appeal to me. And there are definitely Backlund matches I like even if he isn't my favourite. No, I get that he wasn't many people's favorite wrestler. He didn't have the big personality, wasn't as flashy and such. That always had people questioning him as champion. I do think Sr should have taken the belt off of him, by late 1982. I probably would have had Snuka beat him and run with that, as Snuka was massively over. I wouldn't have kept it on Snuka that long, depending on how the crowds were and how level he was. You weren't going to have him as the champion nationally, as his promos were terrible, which is why he had guys like Albano and Buddy Rogers as managers.
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