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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2023 20:43:55 GMT -5
I heard Cena vs Logan Paul is booked for Summer Slam
Which makes me wonder if he'll interfere in Theory's match in WM39 and help him with the win.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2023 8:36:38 GMT -5
Last night, I listened to the Rock’s audio commentary on his match with Stone Cold Steve Austin at WM XV.
You know, it never really worked, given the commentary was “in character”. I’m not sure it would have even worked in 1999.
I enjoyed the commentary Shawn and Nash did on their In Your House 7 match as it wasn’t kayfabe. As Cornette once said, wrestling is neither fish nor fowl, but imagine if, say, a voice artist did a commentary on an episode of Justice League - but in character as Aquaman, Flash or Darkseid. It just wouldn’t work.
The Rock’s commentary was interesting in one sense, but imagine if the Rock and Austin did a commentary on that match today. It’d be more sophisticated. More enlightening.
In reality, the Rock’s commentary on his WM XV match was just an “extended promo”, 100% in character. It just didn’t work.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2023 10:36:10 GMT -5
Some are speculating that KO might turn on Sami at WM39, because I don't expect the Bloodline to lose all their belts. But the drama will continue.
...and Gangrel is expected to appear with Edge in his match.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 26, 2023 10:44:56 GMT -5
Last night, I listened to the Rock’s audio commentary on his match with Stone Cold Steve Austin at WM XV. You know, it never really worked, given the commentary was “in character”. I’m not sure it would have even worked in 1999. I enjoyed the commentary Shawn and Nash did on their In Your House 7 match as it wasn’t kayfabe. As Cornette once said, wrestling is neither fish nor fowl, but imagine if, say, a voice artist did a commentary on an episode of Justice League - but in character as Aquaman, Flash or Darkseid. It just wouldn’t work. The Rock’s commentary was interesting in one sense, but imagine if the Rock and Austin did a commentary on that match today. It’d be more sophisticated. More enlightening. In reality, the Rock’s commentary on his WM XV match was just an “extended promo”, 100% in character. It just didn’t work. It depends on how good the person is with character work. For instance, you can listen to an in-character commentary for This Is Spinal Tap and it is hilarious and fits within the structure of the film, as it is totally improvised, yet sounds like a real commentary. Similarly, Bruce Campbell did one, in-character, as Elvis, for Bubba Ho-Tep. Again, funny stuff, including eating popcorn and taking calls from "Red" (alluding to Red West). I have heard regular commentaries that plain suck. John Boorman lived up to his name, on the commentary track for Excalibur (and also came across as pretty creepy). Kevin Smith's commentaries, with cast and such are great. Ridley Scott's are the same as his interview pieces, for featurettes and rarely address anything on screen. His Blade Runner one was also kind of pompous, especially when he dismisses any criticism of him removing the ambiguity of whether Deckard is human (suggesting he never read the original novel). Deckard's humanity is central to the theme of the work. I have only heard one wrestling-related commentary, with Michael Cole and (possibly) someone else, on either the Chris Benoit or Eddie Guerrero dvd set, for their match in the 1994 Super J Cup. I think it was the Benoit set, because Benoit won that tournament, defeating Great Sasuke, in the finals. I distinctly remember a crack about Dean Malenko's height, because he is at ringside and that only happened in the finals. It was pointless and stupid, because, as I recall, no one on commentary was involved in the match (or knew jack s@#$ about the context of the tournament) The Rock's official memoir was also done with segments in character and out and it really hurt the book. As I recall, they didn't use that device again. Of course, the book was about 40-60% kayfabe (again, from memory), as he omitted family stuff and made it sound like his football career was bigger than it was (even at the collegiate level, he was not a top player). To say it was a major disappointment, after Foley's is an under-statement. There was a series of tapes/DVDs, Wrestling Gold, which had alternate commentary from Dave Meltzer and Jim Cornette (before they fell out with each other). This was done back in the late 90s, during the wrestling boom and features matches from Southwest, Memphis, Detroit and maybe one or two other promotions (from Ron Martinez' collection, since sold to JADAT Sports). It is done as a discussion, with talk of the context of the match, the individual careers and the action of the match. Corny adds a lot of historical detail, while Dave adds a lot of the contextual stuff, about the promotion and the wrestlers. Meltzer is his usual self, verbally, with his tics, ("Well...so....so, yeah......I mean......). Corny is way more polished and the main reason to listen to the tracks.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2023 11:01:08 GMT -5
Wow, I didn’t know Campbell had done a commentary as Elvis. Now, I might enjoy that.
I think the Rock’s commentary on the WM XV match, much like his book, happened at the wrong time. While kayfabe was dying (or dead) in 1999, there were still some vestiges of it in 1999. I don’t feel Montreal had totally killed it. Had the Rock debuted in the WWF in, say, 1994, and released an autobiography in 1996 or early 1997, then perhaps the in-character stuff could have worked.
I remember one enjoyable commentary by Todd Grisham & Road Warrior Animal for the Road Warriors vs. Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard Starrcade 1987 match. This was on the Starrcade - The Essential Collection boxset. Now, kayfabe was long dead when that boxset was released, so we obviously weren’t going to get an in-character commentary. I did enjoy it. It was insightful, I thought Grisham asked the right questions, including where he asked Animal about diet preparation and eating prior to a big match. That’s the kind of thing I enjoy.
I think it’d be great to hear Hogan do some commentaries on his Japanese matches. Perhaps he could then tell us exactly how he managed to wrestle 400 days in one year, specifically how, despite gaining a day when he crossed the international date line, he didn’t then lose a day on the journey back. I’d like to know.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2023 6:00:47 GMT -5
Clash of the Champions I took place 35 years ago today. Sadly, I can’t seem to find a decent poster. Oh well, Sting wrestled NWA World Heavyweight Ric Flair to a 45-minute time-limit draw. We all know that. When I first saw this (via a tape trader), Sting/Flair was the longest match I saw at that point. Flair and Sting never really had a bad match, if you ask me. What a milestone their bout here was. I did enjoy the various tag bouts as well. JCP/WCW, from 1987 to 1994, had some great tag bouts. There were good tag bouts after 1994, but I believe 1987-1994 was the Golden Age of Tag Team Wrestling for JCP/WCW. Did anything else happen that day? Well, there was this: I did not enjoy the bloated championship tournament. With the exception of Jake Roberts/Rick Rude, which ended with a draw anyway, and obviously the Savage/DiBiase final, this left no lasting impression on me. I also hate it when tournaments don’t give us babyface vs babyface and heel vs heel matches. Mix it up a little, guys. We could have had, say, Rick Rude VS One Man Gang, or Jake Roberts VS Hacksaw. Still, I guess the WWF kept things separate back then (we did occasionally see heels and heels battle, e.g. The Quebecers VS Adam Bomb & Bam Bam Bigelow, or Jake Roberts VS Macho Man on SNME in 1986). I did quite enjoy the undercard, such as Demolition VS Strike Force, Ultimate Warrior VS Hercules, and Brutus Beefcake VS Honky Tonk Man. It was great to see Savage walk away with the world title, though.
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Post by Ricky Jackson on Mar 27, 2023 10:24:50 GMT -5
Yeah, Mania 4 has a good case for worst Mania ever. The Atlantic City crowd was also largely heatless because it was full of non fans with comp tickets from the casino
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 27, 2023 10:25:14 GMT -5
Well, the original Clash was just a tv special, done to counter-program against Wrestlemania, after Vince pulled the same stunt with the first Royal Rumble, also a tv special, to counter-program Crockett's Bunkhouse Stampede PPV. I don't know that they had an elaborate poster for that. Something for the venue, maybe, and an advertisement for tv and cable listings; but, not the same kind of marketing as for a PPV. Most of the examples I have seen are from later ones, after it became a regular event.
They had previously done a special, called Superstars on the Superstation, which had done well for them.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 27, 2023 10:32:50 GMT -5
Yeah, Mania 4 has a good case for worst Mania ever. The Atlantic City crowd was also largely heatless because it was full of non fans with comp tickets from the casino Comp tickets, yes; but, it wasn't actually held at the Casino, as people were led to believe. It was at the Atlantic City Convention Hall, which was adjacent to the Trump casino. They sponsored it and the broadcast referred to the venue as the Trump Plaza; but, it wasn't a Trump building. A lot of the comp tickets were from the casino; but, there were others, from various sources, like radio and the WWF, themselves. Yeah, I know; who would have expected misleading information from the Trump organization and the WWF?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2023 11:29:50 GMT -5
Yeah, I know; who would have expected misleading information from the Trump organization and the WWF? That reminds me, on the likes of WWF Superstars, during 94/95, a voiceover would say, “The World Wrestling Federation, for over 50 years the legendary force in sports entertainment.” (I may be paraphrasing) For over 50 years? In 1994/95? So, sports entertainment began in the early 1940s? Oh, okay…
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2023 11:35:33 GMT -5
Incidentally, I’d like to see WWE do a world championship tournament at WrestleMania in the future. But I’d prefer an 8-man tournament.
Also, despite WWE wanting its brand to be the selling point nowadays, rather than individual wrestlers, would they feel confident in the modern era with a tournament being the selling point rather than a specific match?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2023 11:37:25 GMT -5
One news site is reporting that a new world championship belt is ready to be unveiled on WWE TV. One would have to presume the post-WM plan is for two world titles to be a thing again.
There’s even been a rumour about the big, gold belt being unveiled. You know, I never thought that big, gold belt felt at home in WWE. The image of it, at least for me, is so tied with NWA/JCP/WCW.
EDIT: On further thought, is this because there’ll be a second “world” title, or because we’ll see a new champion, much like when Cena’s spinner belt was introduced?
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Post by commond on Mar 27, 2023 17:06:51 GMT -5
I remember being intrigued by the video box to WrestleMania IV when I was a kid, but I can't remember if I ever rented it. From memory, it was two cassettes and cost more to rent. Anyway, pretty crappy WrestleMania, but only the Japanese promotions do tournaments well.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 27, 2023 22:39:01 GMT -5
Yeah, I know; who would have expected misleading information from the Trump organization and the WWF? That reminds me, on the likes of WWF Superstars, during 94/95, a voiceover would say, “The World Wrestling Federation, for over 50 years the legendary force in sports entertainment.” (I may be paraphrasing) For over 50 years? In 1994/95? So, sports entertainment began in the early 1940s? Oh, okay… Well, the whole "sports entertainment" thing was Vince trying to get out from under athletic commission oversight and taxes applied to sporting events, vs entertainment shows. That was part of why he went public with matches being a show, with pre-determined outcomes, to get New Jersey to deregulate them, so they could do shows in the Meadowlands, without the heavier taxes. Gov Christine Todd Whitman was instrumental in getting that altered (no doubt after big contributions from Vince) There was a news piece of Undertaker with Whitman, at a press conference about the issue.... Now, the McMahon family has been involved in pro wrestling going back to the 1930s (maybe a little earlier) with Jess McMahon, who promoted shows in the New York area. In 1953, his son, Vincent J McMahon, started the Capitol Wrestling Corporation, promoting matches in the area, along with Toots Mondt, who had been part of the Golddust Trio, who ran wrestling in the 20s and 30s. After they were broken up, Mondt got involved with New York promoter Jack Curley. After Curley died, the McMahon's got involved with Mondt. Jess McMahon died in 1954 and Vincent J ran things, until he sold out to his son, Vincent K McMahon (our Vince) in 1982, as Vince Sr sold to Vince Jr's Titan Sports company. So, yeah, depending on the demarcation you used, you could claim 50+ years, in 1994/95, or even pearly 50 years. The NWA, which was the oldest promotional organization operating, only went back to 1948. They claimed lineage for the title back to Frank Gotch, in 1905; but, that was after some twists and turns. That claim is largely based on the merger of Lou Thesz's St Louis group, which recognized the National Wrestling Association title, which went back to 1929. Thesz held that title when Sam Muchnick was promoting a rival group. However, the Thesz group was stronger, in the city. The 1948 NWA was built around Pinkie George's promotion, that ran through Missouri, Kansas, Nebraska and Minnesota; Al Haft's promotion in Columbus, OH, Tony Stecher in Minneapolis, Harry Light, in Detroit, and Orville Brown, in Kansas City. Orville Brown was voted their first champion, as he already held the Midwest Wrestling Association title. However, he was involved in an auto accident, which ended his ring career. Muchnick brokered a truce and merger with Thesz's group and the Alliance recognized Thesz as their champion. Thesz then defeated Baron Leone, in LA, to win their version and became the "undisputed," world champion and defended the title, until 1957, when he had his first retirement (semi-retirement, anyway), with a swap with Whipper Billy Warson and two contested matches, with Leo Nominelli (an ex-NFL great) and Edouard Carpentier. Gagne's AWA (there were a couple of previous AWA groups) started up in 1957, after the Carpentier situation, when Omaha recognized Carpentier and had him lose to Gagne (he also set up the WWA title, in LA, with similar situations). The NWA was never one promotion; just a conglomerate of promotions, with the world title owned by the board and booked by the president of the Alliance. However, it continued to legally exist, even when it didn't really have active promoters. That was why WCW couldn't use the NWA title, anymore, for that period, until they made the deal to bring the NWA title back, via Japan and then have Flair win it again, with it becoming the WCW International belt, when that broke apart. The NWA maintained trademark on the name and physical ownership of the title, even though they didn't own Flair's belt, since Crockett had paid for it independently. The Crocketts had been promoting since 1935, with Jim Sr, then Jim Jr, until the sold to Turner, in 1989. However, Crockett got back into it, for a short time, in the early 90s. Muchnick, in St Louis, and Gagne, in Minneapolis had the next oldest promotions, with Muchnick dating from 1941-1982, and Gagne from officially 1960, but he had points in Omaha, since at least 1957, to 1991. Most of the other promoters only ran back about 20 years, before they started closing shop. The Fuller family, cumulatively, dated back to the 40s, but they were done by about 1988, apart from a brief return by Ron Fuller, in the late 90s, in Knoxville.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 27, 2023 23:02:07 GMT -5
I remember being intrigued by the video box to WrestleMania IV when I was a kid, but I can't remember if I ever rented it. From memory, it was two cassettes and cost more to rent. Anyway, pretty crappy WrestleMania, but only the Japanese promotions do tournaments well. I never bought the PPVs; but, I did rent the videos, from Blockbuster, if they had them (I had memberships in 3 locations, plus another chain). I rented that one, but don't remember much. Savage and Dibiase had a good match, in the finals and I believe the Demolition vs Strike Force match was pretty good. Looking at the tournament pairings, Savage vs Butch Reed could have been good, though Reed's knees were in bad shape by then. Savage also faced One Man Gang and they had some good matches in the ICW days, when Gang was Crusher Broomfield and was freed from Savage's contract, by Ronnie Garvin (who was known as the One Man Gang, at that period of time). Steamboat and Valentine sounds good, on paper and they usually were good in WWF matches. They only got 9 minutes, though and Valentine is barely even moving, in that amount of time. Get him up around 20 minutes and he will be going strong. Steamboat did the job. Valentine faced Savage, but was beaten in 6 minutes; so, again, he's not even warmed up. That was half the problem with the tournament: most of the matches were less than 10 minutes. The final didn't even make it that far. Not a lot of storytelling that you can do, in that amount of time. The lonest match on the card was Jake Roberts vs Rick Rude, at 15 minutes, with Demolition vs Strike Force going 12. The battle royal, won by Bad News Allen (I refuse to call him Bad News Brown) was only 9 3/4 minutes. With the tournament, you had 16 matches. In Japan, they would have run the tournament across two nights. When they did the J-Crown Tournament, in 1996, it ran across 4 nights, alongside the G-1 Climax tournament, which was New Japan's premiere tournament event. The Japanese promotions ran their tournaments like other pro sports, with big trophies and presentations, adding a lot of class to the events and giving them an air of legitimacy. That was partially influenced by the sumo bashos and part by things like the World Series and the Stanley Cup. Crockett ran a pretty decent tournament with the original Jim Crockett Sr Memorial Cup Tournament, in 1986. They also did it across 2 nights, in New Orleans, at the Superdome (it was done in cooperation with Bill Watts and the UWF. They brought in some legit international teams, like Giant Baba and Tiger Mask II (Misawa) and Rick Martel & Dino Bravo (from Montreal). They also had the Batten Twins, from Kansas City, Hector & Chavo Guerrero, from Florida, and Bobby Jaggers & Mike Miller, from Portland. There was a team from Memphis and a few from the UWF, as well as Crockett. All of this was before Crockett bought Kansas City, Florida and UWF.
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