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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2017 18:35:24 GMT -5
I actually chatted with Tomas Giorello. He said that DH wanted him around but they kinda waffled on what to do with him and he had bills to pay. Reading between the lines, Dark Horse: "we'd love to do a Giorello Conan project, but Conan's not selling enough to make paying his page rates work, especially because we have to pay licensing fees, so we need to find cheaper artists instead." -M
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Post by lordyam on Aug 27, 2017 18:43:01 GMT -5
Kinda yeah. At the same time they were very reluctant to let him go. They kinda blundered there.
It's sad really. The Queen of the Black Coast adaptation started pretty well (20000). If they had a better writer and artist I think they could have done better.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2017 18:47:20 GMT -5
Kinda yeah. At the same time they were very reluctant to let him go. They kinda blundered there. It's sad really. The Queen of the Black Coast adaptation started pretty well (20000). If they had a better writer and artist I think they could have done better. It started that well because Wood and Cloonan were name creators who brought their own following to the books and got people to buy Conan who normally wouldn't. When Cloonan left, a big chunk of that audience went with here. Wood's fans didn't atay either because it didn't jive with typical Wood projects and was no shade on his Northlanders, which is what some folks expected with him on Conan. However, without Wood and Cloonan attached, the book would not have had initial sales that high to drop off. It would have started in the 10-12K range like most Conan #1 issues recently and dropped off form there. So "better" artist and writer may have made Conan fans happier, but without those 2, it doesn't sell to non-Conan fans to hit that 20K sales mark. -M
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Post by lordyam on Aug 27, 2017 19:41:34 GMT -5
Conan the Cimmerian #1 had a pretty big following (31,000 or so). Johnnypt on the forum said that Road of Kings only came into being because they switched the order of the stories from IS-BC to BC-IC. Otherwise they could have jumped right into Queen, when fan goodwill was still fairly high.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2017 20:24:19 GMT -5
Conan the Cimmerian #1 had a pretty big following (31,000 or so). Johnnypt on the forum said that Road of Kings only came into being because they switched the order of the stories from IS-BC to BC-IC. Otherwise they could have jumped right into Queen, when fan goodwill was still fairly high. Possibly, but I had a number of retailers say to me that they were ordering Conan again for the first time in years because they could sell Wood and Cloonan and they couldn't sell Conan at all and had stopped ordering it a couple of years previous to Wood being announced on the book. Ihad to go to 6 or 7 shops beforeI found a copy, they had all underanticipated demand on the book form Wood and Cloonan fans even though they ordered 5+ shelf copies, something they hadn't done inyears (most ordered pulls only on Conan so only people who preordered copies could get it prior to Wood's run for a year or two). Of course by issue six, most of them were down to ordering pulls only because the Cloonan fans left with her and the Wood fans were disappointed it wasn't like his other stuff. Wood's Conan also got features on Newsarama, CBR and other major comic newssites of the time prior to coming out to build up interest in the book, something that hadn't been true of Conan previous to that, and sales on Road of Kings and the Conan minis and on the latter issues of Cimmerian were just plain bad. A new #1 wasn't going to regain retailer confidence unless there was a salable name attached to it, and retailers weren't going to order shelf copies of it, so 20K would have been impossible without the push Wood and Cloonan gave it. Unfortunately for Wood, a scandal involving him broke around that time and alienated some of his fanabse, which also got play on the newssites too. I believe it was just after Cloonan left, so it was like a double hit to sales on the book coupled with her departure. She was supposed to come back for at least another arc, but never did, and neither did the people buying the book because of her. Add to that the Conan hardcore folks who dropped the book because it was different and then you had the sales reach an ebb, but they would not have been as high as they were to fall if they had different creators only palatable to Conan hardcore fans. Fans may still have had some goodwill towards Conan when Barbarian launched, but retailers didn't, they had lost it before them and only the names Wood and Cloonan generated any goodwill with them, and they order the books, not the fans, so their goodwill is far more important to determining the success and sales level of the book than fans. -M
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Post by lordyam on Aug 27, 2017 20:29:19 GMT -5
What scandal was this? And from what I read Cimmerian had about 18,000 or so on it's final issue
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2017 20:33:04 GMT -5
there were accusations of inappropriate behavior towards female associates at conventions and towards female collaborators. -M
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 1, 2017 8:57:40 GMT -5
I can't put my finger on anything in particular I think they're doing wrong but for some reason most of the Dark Horse Conan stuff hasn't connected with me even though I still feel like a pretty big fan of the character and the whole sword-and-sorcery sub-genre REH created. Part of the problem is the artwork - not that any of it is an absolute turn-off, but none of it has leaped out and made me want to read a story. And what I've seen of other REH characters from Dark Horse has looked a notch or two below their Conan comics, including my personal favourite Kull. Actually, I can't recall now if I've seen anything featuring other REH heroes like Bran Mak Morn or Solomon Kane. Maybe it's just that I haven't looked at anything closely enough. I do think Thomas Giorello's artwork looks good, so I should try one of his series sometime. I think I asked RR and other DH Conan readers for some recommendations a while back, I'll see if I can dig up that post and get some ideas. Of all the artists who have worked on Conan comics, I feel Cary Nord has come closest to capturing what REH had on the page, the lithe pantherish powerful Conan, and also captured the Frazetta vibe in his work. I agree. Nord also brought something that is almost always overlooked: verisimilitude. That, in my eyes, is a major aspect of Robert Howard's appeal; his Hyborian Age doesn't feel like just any other make-believe world, it really feels like a historically authentic era. Cary Nord made his cities look like proto-Sumerian ones, really bringing us back to an age undreamed of. The same thing went for Richard Corben in his stories about Conan's granddad. I think Giorello is a very good artist, but as beautiful as his work is I felt it was a step down from Nord's. Not because he's not as talented, but because I didn't want fantasy art on Conan. I wanted the grit and the almost archaeological care given to architecture, clothes and weapons. Like Smith in his day, Nord was an almost impossible act to follow. Just as Busiek was, really (and just as Thomas was in 1980). I think Van Lente did an amazing job after the Wood run, and he actually made me interested in Dark Horse's Conan for a while, but his was an uphill battle.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 1, 2017 9:13:02 GMT -5
Were the original Howard stories available to the masses before the 2003 Wandering Star/Del Rey editions that collected all of Howard's original Conan stories? I realize that this was the first time we got to read the unedited versions, but were there collections that featured the edited versions as they appeared in Weird Tales pre-de Camp and Carter? As others said, Gollancz published the originals when the stories were no longer covered by copyright in the United Kingdom. Before that, the only instance of original Conan stories being published (that I know about) was a book edited by Karl Edward Wagner, The essential Conan, published in 1998. Now while I think De Camp had no business messing with Howard's prose at all, the corrections he made to Howard's originals are extremely minor. Having read both versions numerous times, I never noticed a difference (except one time where Howard used a racist slur that De Camp changed, and of course in the way De Camp slightly changed The Black Stranger to make it fit in what he saw as "the Conan saga".) I've seen writers claim that they hated Conan the first time they read it, while claiming that they grew to love the character when they "finally" had access to the original stories... What a lot a nonsense. Maybe they hated the pastiches so much that it coloured their impression of the Howard Conan stories, but there's no way someone could hate a De Camp-edited Howard tale and love a pure Howard one. They're practically identical.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2017 12:30:08 GMT -5
From Tom Grindberg....
So looks like whatever Conan project he and Roy were working on is dead, and even worse, those Tarzan collections of his strips isn't going to happen.
-M
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 18, 2017 13:57:25 GMT -5
From Tom Grindberg.... So looks like whatever Conan project he and Roy were working on is dead, and even worse, those Tarzan collections of his strips isn't going to happen. -M I'm not Dark Horse's accountant, but I will say this: I would have paid money for those books.
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Post by lordyam on Sept 19, 2017 13:58:09 GMT -5
Of all the artists who have worked on Conan comics, I feel Cary Nord has come closest to capturing what REH had on the page, the lithe pantherish powerful Conan, and also captured the Frazetta vibe in his work. I agree. Nord also brought something that is almost always overlooked: verisimilitude. That, in my eyes, is a major aspect of Robert Howard's appeal; his Hyborian Age doesn't feel like just any other make-believe world, it really feels like a historically authentic era. Cary Nord made his cities look like proto-Sumerian ones, really bringing us back to an age undreamed of. The same thing went for Richard Corben in his stories about Conan's granddad. I think Giorello is a very good artist, but as beautiful as his work is I felt it was a step down from Nord's. Not because he's not as talented, but because I didn't want fantasy art on Conan. I wanted the grit and the almost archaeological care given to architecture, clothes and weapons. Like Smith in his day, Nord was an almost impossible act to follow. Just as Busiek was, really (and just as Thomas was in 1980). I think Van Lente did an amazing job after the Wood run, and he actually made me interested in Dark Horse's Conan for a while, but his was an uphill battle. Truman did a good job; he was the only one who could really match Busiek besides Van Lente.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 19, 2017 14:27:30 GMT -5
I agree. Nord also brought something that is almost always overlooked: verisimilitude. That, in my eyes, is a major aspect of Robert Howard's appeal; his Hyborian Age doesn't feel like just any other make-believe world, it really feels like a historically authentic era. Cary Nord made his cities look like proto-Sumerian ones, really bringing us back to an age undreamed of. The same thing went for Richard Corben in his stories about Conan's granddad. I think Giorello is a very good artist, but as beautiful as his work is I felt it was a step down from Nord's. Not because he's not as talented, but because I didn't want fantasy art on Conan. I wanted the grit and the almost archaeological care given to architecture, clothes and weapons. Like Smith in his day, Nord was an almost impossible act to follow. Just as Busiek was, really (and just as Thomas was in 1980). I think Van Lente did an amazing job after the Wood run, and he actually made me interested in Dark Horse's Conan for a while, but his was an uphill battle. Truman did a good job; he was the only one who could really match Busiek besides Van Lente. He was certainly taking his job seriously; I have a lot of respect for all the effort he put into staying true to Howard's stories. Admittedly there are things I would have liked to see handled differently, but that's neither here nor there; Truman did a good job... and one far superior to Wood's. He knew his Hyborian Age geography, for one. One thing that truly annoyed me with the Dark Horse run is its adoption of the so-called "Dark storm chronology" (or a chronology very close to it). While I fully agree that "The Frost Giant's Daughter" should occur very early in Conan's career, I find the placement of "Queen of the Black Coast" after "Iron shadows in the moon" contradictory to the information given in those two stories. In the first, when Conan first boards the ship Argo and joins its crew, much is made of his many qualities. A fellow others look up to, a natural leader, a fighting man it's good to have around, etc. In fact, there's basically only one important quality that isn't mentioned : that of his having any shipboard experience. In Iron Shadows in the moon, meanwhile, Conan smiles when he hears he might meet pirates, hinting that he's got plans for them; he also knows all about the laws of the Brotherhood. To me, that would make Queen of the Black Coast the earlier tale, the one in which he gets his first experience of the sea. What"s more, QotBC says this about our man: "Naive as a child in many ways, unfamiliar with the sophistry of civilization, he was naturally intelligent, jealous of his rights, and dangerous as a hungry tiger. Young in years, he was hardened in warfare and wandering, and his sojourns in many lands were evident in his apparel". This definitely suggests a young man, and requires placing QotBC early in his career; pretty much where the original chronology had played it, in fact, after his having spent a few years frst as a thief, then as a mercenary soldier. (Also, the original chronology pretty much had Howard's seal of approval, as stated in his letter to Miller: " Your outline follows his career as I have visualized it pretty closely. The differences are minor." Among the minor differences would be the need to put "Xuthal of the dusk" before "The devil in iron", as the former is referenced to in the latter, something that Dark Horse properly corrected).
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Post by lordyam on Sept 19, 2017 19:00:57 GMT -5
That was a problem. Even leaving aside that Wood went a little to far it clashed with how Conan's experienced loss in Iron Shadows.
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