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Post by Phil Maurice on Mar 12, 2016 12:57:41 GMT -5
I chose Born Again. I have sharply different opinions on various Frank Miller works that I've read. I really love Born Again. I kind of liked his original DD run the first time I read it, but I really loved it when I re-read it. I I picked Born Again also. I think it's easily the best and most powerful Daredevil tale. It's also a reminder that strong work can still be done with a character even after a creator has made an indelible mark, as Miller did with his initial run. Rather than rest on his laurels, Miller returned to the character and cranked the dials to "11."
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Post by MDG on Mar 12, 2016 13:24:54 GMT -5
If I re-read Year One, tht make it on the strength of Mazzuchelli's art, but I put Dark Knight. I can still remember the initial excitement when it came out, and the story didn't seem to get away from him as with later stuff. That might be credited to the presence of actual editorial oversight.
I really wanted to like Sin City, but I never really cared for any of the stories I read. Nothing really engaging or interesting to me.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2016 20:49:08 GMT -5
Tie between Born Again & Dark Knight Returns. Slight edge to DKR since I like Batman more.
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Post by berkley on Mar 12, 2016 21:26:30 GMT -5
I haven't read Born Again, that's another one of Miller's I should try one of these days. At the time, or some years before that, actually, I had had the feeling that his original DD run had begun to run out of steam a bit, and I didn't read beyond the famous Bullseye/Elektra issue (#181) even though that issue itself was one of the best of the series. I didn't pay attention to Marvel much in the later 80s and was totally unaware of DD Born Again when it came out.
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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 13, 2016 11:48:01 GMT -5
There're great comics outside the superhero genre, but none at the level of Watchmen, Born Again, Year One or TDKR, really. That's just an opinion, but not a misinformed one. Born Again is a very good comic, but, seriously? Nohting outside the superhero genre matches or surpasses that level of quality in your opinion? […] Superheroes is a minor part of the comic book spectrum, one that became predominant of american comics a lot more recently than we might think. […] Year One is an exceptional little superhero tale, but if you gonna go wit Mazzucheli, I'd take Asterios Polyp any day as a masterwork. I hope you don't mind me taking the conversation here, but this is more about Miller than Watchmen. Not that I've read. The storytelling is perfect (that page at the DB, with Urich talking on the phone? unmatched), page composition is exceptional, panel composition is very good, it has great art, characters driven to the edge and beyond, brilliant internal dialogues, a priceless inside joke… What more do you want? Rhythm? Spotless. If there's one thing I don't like, is Mazzucchelli changing from Colan to Toth, mid-story. For as long as I can remember, superheroes clearly dominate the newsstands. But i don't see what relevance that has for the argument. Now, if you go to Japan, things change. Year One may not have that many high points, but it's probably the best Miller script ever. TDKR is more inspired, but he overdid it several times.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Mar 13, 2016 14:13:27 GMT -5
Born Again is a very good comic, but, seriously? Nohting outside the superhero genre matches or surpasses that level of quality in your opinion? […] Superheroes is a minor part of the comic book spectrum, one that became predominant of american comics a lot more recently than we might think. […] Year One is an exceptional little superhero tale, but if you gonna go wit Mazzucheli, I'd take Asterios Polyp any day as a masterwork. I hope you don't mind me taking the conversation here, but this is more about Miller than Watchmen. Not that I've read. The storytelling is perfect (that page at the DB, with Urich talking on the phone? unmatched), page composition is exceptional, panel composition is very good, it has great art, characters driven to the edge and beyond, brilliant internal dialogues, a priceless inside joke… What more do you want? Rhythm? Spotless. If there's one thing I don't like, is Mazzucchelli changing from Colan to Toth, mid-story. For as long as I can remember, superheroes clearly dominate the newsstands. But i don't see what relevance that has for the argument. Now, if you go to Japan, things change. Year One may not have that many high points, but it's probably the best Miller script ever. TDKR is more inspired, but he overdid it several times. I couldn't agree less again : even in the USA, newstand comics is still a very minor part of the comic experience. Superhero comic fans ARE "ethnocentric", that is constantly demonstrated over and over, even sometimes here. Newspaper strips have a far greater audience than newstands, that's just a fact, and you can bet that in the past 10 years, far more people in hte world have read a Walking Dead story than any other specific superhero comic. Newstand doesn't exist in Japan or France, and superheroes comics are such a small part of hte market there, but if you look at global national comics sale in the USA, including newstand, even there superheroes don't dominate. But really, in the end, if your deep conviction is that those three superhero comics are the pinacle of what comics can do, I really don't know what to say, I'm just baffled. I mysef said Year One is Miller's best script earlier in the conversation, but it till just is a good little superhero story, on the noir side. In no way does it come near the brilliance and inovations of From Hell or Lost Girls.
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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 13, 2016 16:05:34 GMT -5
Newstand doesn't exist in Japan or France, and superheroes comics are such a small part of the market there, but if you look at global national comics sale in the USA, including newstand, even there superheroes don't dominate. I mysef said Year One is Miller's best script earlier in the conversation, but it till just is a good little superhero story, on the noir side. In no way does it come near the brilliance and innovations of From Hell or Lost Girls. It doesn't exist in Spain either, and yet, comic-book shops aren't known for their variety. It's sad, but it is. As for the USA, I always thought Previews dominated (monopolized?) distribution, and I've glanced a few issues. Not much variety there, either. The only other "genre" worth mentioning would be manga, but I guess that's not what you're talking about. I plan on doing a poll on From Hell, later on, so let's not get ahead of ourselves.
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Post by Action Ace on Mar 13, 2016 20:42:29 GMT -5
I don't think I've read a Frank Miller comic that didn't star Batman. My choice is Year One. I strongly prefer DC over Marvel in all eras, but you really should check out his Daredevil runs. If Mark Waid can't entice me to pick up a Daredevil comic, Frank Miller has no shot.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Mar 14, 2016 18:00:55 GMT -5
Sad to see no love for Marvel Two-In-One # 51.
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Post by String on Mar 14, 2016 19:37:00 GMT -5
For me, Born Again and more in general, his entire DD catalog. I recently re-read Born Again in an online DD club and taking new notices and a fresh look at the chemistry and creativity between Miller and Mazz, it's really incredible that this was Miller's second run with the character. It's sad though that this story, while a creative watermark for both creator and character, would also set the 'tone' for what many think a DD story should be about; tragedy and madness. It's easy to forget that Miller's original DD run held quite a few light-hearted moments.
But Love & War is another classic and Man Without Fear is about an important re-telling of DD's origin as Year One was for Batman. It's no accident that quite a few elements from MWOF was used in the Netflix show to great effect.
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Post by berkley on Mar 14, 2016 22:34:27 GMT -5
I like the idea of Miller retelling DD'S origin the way he did Batman's but I'm a bit leery of Man Without Fear because of JR Jr's artwork which I usually don't much care for, though I think he's quite talented and certainly far superior to most of the Jim Lee style artists you see in so many superhero comics since the 90s.
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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 15, 2016 6:43:45 GMT -5
It's sad though that this story, while a creative watermark for both creator and character, would also set the 'tone' for what many think a DD story should be about; tragedy and madness. It's easy to forget that Miller's original DD run held quite a few light-hearted moments. […] Man Without Fear is about an important re-telling of DD's origin as Year One was for Batman. It's no accident that quite a few elements from MWOF was used in the Netflix show to great effect. DD started to show signs of madness after Elektra's death, in the first Miller run. And the second one had to contemplate the revisionist superhero heritage, recently stablished. But yes, I see what you mean. I think theres quite some difference between the two, Year One was a big project for Miller, while MWOF looks like a work for hire, in the midst of his author owned stuff, much like RoboCop vs. The Terminator, in that sense.
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Post by dupersuper on Mar 15, 2016 8:07:54 GMT -5
I strongly prefer DC over Marvel in all eras, but you really should check out his Daredevil runs. If Mark Waid can't entice me to pick up a Daredevil comic, Frank Miller has no shot. You're just cheating yourself twice over...
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 15, 2016 10:36:33 GMT -5
I like the idea of Miller retelling DD'S origin the way he did Batman's but I'm a bit leery of Man Without Fear because of JR Jr's artwork which I usually don't much care for, though I think he's quite talented and certainly far superior to most of the Jim Lee style artists you see in so many superhero comics since the 90s. It took me years to finally pick up Man without fear, but I really enjoyed it. A lot of its good aspects was picked up by the excellent Netflix series. (I hope the same will hold true for season 2!)
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Post by Action Ace on Mar 15, 2016 16:45:09 GMT -5
If Mark Waid can't entice me to pick up a Daredevil comic, Frank Miller has no shot. You're just cheating yourself twice over... Pushing more chips into the pot... I have no interest in his acclaimed Netflix series either.
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