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Post by berkley on Oct 5, 2020 20:08:43 GMT -5
Except the original Marvel Universe ended in an issue of Dr. Strange in about 1974 when Doc failed to save it and everything except he and Eternity was destroyed. Doc convinced Eternity to recreate an exact duplicate of it all, but he and Eternity remembered what had come before. Of course Marv Wolfman tried to retcon that all out after he drove Englehart off the book with a Dallas it's all a dream redux, which really just points out the fact that trying to fit every story published by a company into a single continuous sandbox and have it all work is a fool's errand, and a lot of people waste a lot of energy and story pages trying to "fix" things in other people's stories they don't like instead of just telling a good story themselves. -M One of the last issues of the original WHAT IF revisited that Strange and Eternity scenario. It was a sequel to their 'Avengers vs Korvac' issue, rather than a take on the story you mentioned, but it still came down to Eternity denying Strange's request to restore everything. Phoenix and Silver Surfer(like Strange, cast off by Korvac) took the opportunity to travel to other realities, but Strange elected to stay in the 'voided' universe, in a permanent trance. Was that #40, "What If Dr. Strange Had Never Become Master of the Mystic Arts?", or another issue?
I didn't realise it was Wolfman who took Englehart off Doctor Strange back then, how disappointing.*
*edit: Are we sure it wasn't Gerry Conway? I see that according to wiki he took over as editor in chief of Marvel early in 1976, though I'm not sure if it was his decision or whoever was editor od the series itself at the time. I always assumed it was Conway, because I knew he and Englehart had had a conflict earlier (or was it around the same time?) over the Avengers.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Oct 6, 2020 11:27:38 GMT -5
The Hunted Metal Men (which I recall kinda liking, but it was likely just a ploy to stave off cancellation or try to keep pace somehow with Marvel) Super-Hero Blackhawks (which I recall not liking one bit, but it was likely just a ploy to stave off cancellation or try to keep pace somehow with Marvel) Non-Super-Hero Teen Titans (which I recall being intrigued by, but it was likely just a ploy to stave off cancellation, be relevant, and/ or try to keep pace somehow with Marvel) The Mike Murdock Era (Wasn't a DD reader then, but it just seemed dumb; maybe it wasn't?) Justice League Detroit (Hoo boy... I'd read JLA almost since Starro attacked and stayed through #200, but when I saw this mess, I said sayonara. Steel? Vibe? Gypsy? Why didn't they just rename the group FutureCannon Fodder?) Hex (Talk about taking a great character and concept out in the alley and kicking it to death!) Sorry, just saw the full thread title, and I have no idea if any of these were offically "retconned," but they were gotten rid of in various ways. I believe all of these are still in-continuity aside from the Super-Hero Blackhawks … they're just not spoken of ever. I actually liked Mike Murdock!
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Post by Prince Hal on Oct 6, 2020 13:59:18 GMT -5
The Hunted Metal Men (which I recall kinda liking, but it was likely just a ploy to stave off cancellation or try to keep pace somehow with Marvel) Super-Hero Blackhawks (which I recall not liking one bit, but it was likely just a ploy to stave off cancellation or try to keep pace somehow with Marvel) Non-Super-Hero Teen Titans (which I recall being intrigued by, but it was likely just a ploy to stave off cancellation, be relevant, and/ or try to keep pace somehow with Marvel) The Mike Murdock Era (Wasn't a DD reader then, but it just seemed dumb; maybe it wasn't?) Justice League Detroit (Hoo boy... I'd read JLA almost since Starro attacked and stayed through #200, but when I saw this mess, I said sayonara. Steel? Vibe? Gypsy? Why didn't they just rename the group FutureCannon Fodder?) Hex (Talk about taking a great character and concept out in the alley and kicking it to death!) Sorry, just saw the full thread title, and I have no idea if any of these were offically "retconned," but they were gotten rid of in various ways. I believe all of these are still in-continuity aside from the Super-Hero Blackhawks … they're just not spoken of ever.I actually liked Mike Murdock! You mean nobody misses The Listener? (Worst costume ever.) Or Dr. Hands? (Is there a creepier super-hero name than Dr. Hands?) What an overturned manure truck of an "era" this was.
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Post by chaykinstevens on Oct 6, 2020 14:10:12 GMT -5
One of the last issues of the original WHAT IF revisited that Strange and Eternity scenario. It was a sequel to their 'Avengers vs Korvac' issue, rather than a take on the story you mentioned, but it still came down to Eternity denying Strange's request to restore everything. Phoenix and Silver Surfer(like Strange, cast off by Korvac) took the opportunity to travel to other realities, but Strange elected to stay in the 'voided' universe, in a permanent trance. Was that #40, "What If Dr. Strange Had Never Become Master of the Mystic Arts?", or another issue? It was a backup by Mark Gruenwald and Jack Abel in What If #43.
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Post by berkley on Oct 6, 2020 14:41:39 GMT -5
Was that #40, "What If Dr. Strange Had Never Become Master of the Mystic Arts?", or another issue? It was a backup by Mark Gruenwald and Jack Abel in What If #43.
Ah, thanks. I actually have that issue and must have read that back-up way back when it came out, since I remember the lead story, "What If Conan Were Stranded in the 20th Century?", pretty well. Don't remember the Dr. Strange back-up at all, though.
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Post by profh0011 on Oct 6, 2020 18:28:46 GMT -5
"Are we sure it wasn't Gerry Conway? I see that according to wiki he took over as editor in chief of Marvel early in 1976, though I'm not sure if it was his decision or whoever was editor od the series itself at the time. I always assumed it was Conway, because I knew he and Englehart had had a conflict earlier (or was it around the same time?) over the Avengers."
I was a regular reader when it happened. And, I've read several interviews that talked about it after-the-fact.
Gerry Conway became Editor-In-Chief, but also wanted to get a lot of freelance writing in in his spare time. So he KICKED entire creative teams off multiple books all at once, so he could write them instead. The way I see it, he did so many stories in such a short space of time, he almost had to have been stock-piling them in advance. Someone once said, "REVENGE is a terrible basis for an editorial regime." (He was pissed off at not getting a raise or a promotion from Marvel from before he went to DC the 1st time.)
In my view, EVERY story Conway wrote in that period was CRAP, compared to what he replaced, and what replaced him when he was suddenly gone a couple months later (some have sworn it was only 2 weeks, but I don't see how that's physically possible).
Conway took over THE DEFENDERS (kicking Steve Gerber & Sal Buscema to the curb, inexplicably keeping Klaus Janson on to MURDER Keith Giffen's art as he had been murdering Sal's); he took over DAREDEVIL (booting Marv Wolfman & Bob Brown out); he took over IRON MAN (I think Len Wein & Herb Trimpe were shown the door); he took over GHOST RIDER (after Jim Shooter had already screwed Tony Isabella out of finishing up a 2-year epic he was doing-- on RELIGIOUS grounds); but he really, really wanted THE AVENGERS, and drove Steve Englehart so completely up a wall that Steve over-reacted and QUIT Marvel, while deciding to QUIT comics entirely... after he'd spend a year at DC, first. Yeah, Steve took too much LSD, there's no question. So Conway took over AVENGERS, CAPTAIN MAR-VELL and SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP (all from Englehart). The only Englehart book Conway DIDN'T take over was DR. STRANGE, which apparently Wolfman got as a consolation prize for being kicked off of DAREDEVIL!
Wolfman's DAREDEVIL had gotten very chaotic by that point, but nothing like the directionless rambling incoherence of his DR. STRANGE storyline. After several months, Jim Starlin came in to "FIX" the direction of the long story, and then left Roger Stern to come in and finish it.
There was an interview with several people in the early 80s (?) in which Conway's antics came out. Oddly, decades later, Englehart seems to have much kinder things to say about Conway. But I remember what he said decades back.
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Post by profh0011 on Oct 6, 2020 18:35:15 GMT -5
I almost forgot, Conway also started 2 new book at the same time: MS. MARVEL and the LOGAN'S RUN adaptation.
Somebody tell me how it's physically possible for a guy to be Editor In Chief AND write that many comics AT THE SAME TIME.
Pretty much every book he hijacked IMPROVED dramatically when he left.
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Post by profh0011 on Oct 6, 2020 18:44:50 GMT -5
The Mike Murdock Era (Wasn't a DD reader then, but it just seemed dumb; maybe it wasn't?)
Here's a simple truth. GENE COLAN wrote those stories. When Gene was on a book like that, the writing wasn't great, but with art like his, most didn't care.
Had I know Gene wrote "Mike Murdock", it would have explained what the HELL he jumped on a series like "HOWARD THE DUCK" for. I couldn't figure it out at the time. He LOVED comedy!
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Post by Cei-U! on Oct 6, 2020 18:53:54 GMT -5
The Hunted Metal Men (which I recall kinda liking, but it was likely just a ploy to stave off cancellation or try to keep pace somehow with Marvel) Super-Hero Blackhawks (which I recall not liking one bit, but it was likely just a ploy to stave off cancellation or try to keep pace somehow with Marvel) Non-Super-Hero Teen Titans (which I recall being intrigued by, but it was likely just a ploy to stave off cancellation, be relevant, and/ or try to keep pace somehow with Marvel) The Mike Murdock Era (Wasn't a DD reader then, but it just seemed dumb; maybe it wasn't?) Justice League Detroit (Hoo boy... I'd read JLA almost since Starro attacked and stayed through #200, but when I saw this mess, I said sayonara. Steel? Vibe? Gypsy? Why didn't they just rename the group FutureCannon Fodder?) Hex (Talk about taking a great character and concept out in the alley and kicking it to death!) Sorry, just saw the full thread title, and I have no idea if any of these were offically "retconned," but they were gotten rid of in various ways. I believe all of these are still in-continuity aside from the Super-Hero Blackhawks … they're just not spoken of ever. I actually liked Mike Murdock! The super-hero Blackhawks appear in a couple of issues of JLA: Year One... and they're mentioned in my Lash House novel because of course I had to make them part of the backstory.
Cei-U! I summon the madness!
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Post by berkley on Oct 6, 2020 19:06:47 GMT -5
The Hunted Metal Men (which I recall kinda liking, but it was likely just a ploy to stave off cancellation or try to keep pace somehow with Marvel) Super-Hero Blackhawks (which I recall not liking one bit, but it was likely just a ploy to stave off cancellation or try to keep pace somehow with Marvel) Non-Super-Hero Teen Titans (which I recall being intrigued by, but it was likely just a ploy to stave off cancellation, be relevant, and/ or try to keep pace somehow with Marvel) The Mike Murdock Era (Wasn't a DD reader then, but it just seemed dumb; maybe it wasn't?) Justice League Detroit (Hoo boy... I'd read JLA almost since Starro attacked and stayed through #200, but when I saw this mess, I said sayonara. Steel? Vibe? Gypsy? Why didn't they just rename the group FutureCannon Fodder?) Hex (Talk about taking a great character and concept out in the alley and kicking it to death!) Sorry, just saw the full thread title, and I have no idea if any of these were offically "retconned," but they were gotten rid of in various ways. I believe all of these are still in-continuity aside from the Super-Hero Blackhawks … they're just not spoken of ever. I actually liked Mike Murdock! Yeah, I didn't mind those issues either. I can understand why the Mike Murdock sub-plot bugs a lot of readers - it's crazy and unbelievable even for superhero comics and I've been put off by similar things myself in other cases - but for whatever reason it didn't and doesn't bother me in this instance - probably in part because Colan's artwork was a the main attraction at the time anyway, but perhaps also it felt right for DD's swash-buckling, wise-cracking persona. Just as well it didn't last too long, I suppose, but for those few issues I found it amusing.
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Post by berkley on Oct 6, 2020 19:08:46 GMT -5
"Are we sure it wasn't Gerry Conway? I see that according to wiki he took over as editor in chief of Marvel early in 1976, though I'm not sure if it was his decision or whoever was editor od the series itself at the time. I always assumed it was Conway, because I knew he and Englehart had had a conflict earlier (or was it around the same time?) over the Avengers."I was a regular reader when it happened. And, I've read several interviews that talked about it after-the-fact. Gerry Conway became Editor-In-Chief, but also wanted to get a lot of freelance writing in in his spare time. So he KICKED entire creative teams off multiple books all at once, so he could write them instead. The way I see it, he did so many stories in such a short space of time, he almost had to have been stock-piling them in advance. Someone once said, " REVENGE is a terrible basis for an editorial regime." (He was pissed off at not getting a raise or a promotion from Marvel from before he went to DC the 1st time.) In my view, EVERY story Conway wrote in that period was CRAP, compared to what he replaced, and what replaced him when he was suddenly gone a couple months later (some have sworn it was only 2 weeks, but I don't see how that's physically possible). Conway took over THE DEFENDERS (kicking Steve Gerber & Sal Buscema to the curb, inexplicably keeping Klaus Janson on to MURDER Keith Giffen's art as he had been murdering Sal's); he took over DAREDEVIL (booting Marv Wolfman & Bob Brown out); he took over IRON MAN (I think Len Wein & Herb Trimpe were shown the door); he took over GHOST RIDER (after Jim Shooter had already screwed Tony Isabella out of finishing up a 2-year epic he was doing-- on RELIGIOUS grounds); but he really, really wanted THE AVENGERS, and drove Steve Englehart so completely up a wall that Steve over-reacted and QUIT Marvel, while deciding to QUIT comics entirely... after he'd spend a year at DC, first. Yeah, Steve took too much LSD, there's no question. So Conway took over AVENGERS, CAPTAIN MAR-VELL and SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP (all from Englehart). The only Englehart book Conway DIDN'T take over was DR. STRANGE, which apparently Wolfman got as a consolation prize for being kicked off of DAREDEVIL! Wolfman's DAREDEVIL had gotten very chaotic by that point, but nothing like the directionless rambling incoherence of his DR. STRANGE storyline. After several months, Jim Starlin came in to "FIX" the direction of the long story, and then left Roger Stern to come in and finish it. There was an interview with several people in the early 80s (?) in which Conway's antics came out. Oddly, decades later, Englehart seems to have much kinder things to say about Conway. But I remember what he said decades back. I always found Conway a mediocre writer - not bad, but just not in any way special. His name in the credits was never a draw for me and unless the art was exceptionally good, it could even be the deciding factor in me NOT reading a comic.
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Post by earl on Oct 6, 2020 19:30:30 GMT -5
Looked it up, this the issue where Bill Mantlo retcons away the Rampaging Hulk magazine series. The other thing my mind seems to recall from the 80s, that there might have been a bit of dig at Doug Moench from Mantlo in doing this retcon. At least according to the wiki, these series were originally supposed to take place inbetween the original 6 issue story and when the Tales to Astonish started. Don't remember that nugget from back in the day, although it might have been mentioned in the letters column or something of the sort when they started the series. All those were read 30+ years ago, but I remember there being some good issues in that Rampaging Hulk series.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Oct 7, 2020 11:34:18 GMT -5
The super-hero Blackhawks appear in a couple of issues of JLA: Year One... and they're mentioned in my Lash House novel because of course I had to make them part of the backstory.
If I was ever going to write for DC (which I don't necessarily want to do, not as if it's on offer!) my take would be to retcon these characters as the 1960s Global Guardians, essentially keeping the stories but detaching them from the Blackhawks.
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Post by chaykinstevens on Oct 7, 2020 12:22:22 GMT -5
Conway took over THE DEFENDERS (kicking Steve Gerber & Sal Buscema to the curb, inexplicably keeping Klaus Janson on to MURDER Keith Giffen's art as he had been murdering Sal's); he took over DAREDEVIL (booting Marv Wolfman & Bob Brown out); he took over IRON MAN (I think Len Wein & Herb Trimpe were shown the door); he took over GHOST RIDER (after Jim Shooter had already screwed Tony Isabella out of finishing up a 2-year epic he was doing-- on RELIGIOUS grounds); but he really, really wanted THE AVENGERS, and drove Steve Englehart so completely up a wall that Steve over-reacted and QUIT Marvel, while deciding to QUIT comics entirely... after he'd spend a year at DC, first. Yeah, Steve took too much LSD, there's no question. So Conway took over AVENGERS, CAPTAIN MAR-VELL and SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP (all from Englehart). The only Englehart book Conway DIDN'T take over was DR. STRANGE, which apparently Wolfman got as a consolation prize for being kicked off of DAREDEVIL! I disagree about Janson's Defenders work. I thought he added a lot to Sal Buscema's breakdowns and the Giffen issues he inked and coloured were about the best Keith ever looked. Goodwin and Tuska were on Iron Man immediately prior to Conway. Conway never plotted or scripted Super-Villain Team-Up, although his Avengers crossed over with SVTU by Englehart's successor, Bill Mantlo. If Conway was only in charge for a couple of months, I wonder how he managed to write so many Avengers issues. He seems to have started on that series a few months before the other titles he annexed.
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Post by chaykinstevens on Oct 7, 2020 12:25:30 GMT -5
I almost forgot, Conway also started 2 new book at the same time: MS. MARVEL and the LOGAN'S RUN adaptation. Conway also created a third series, Spectacular Spider-Man.
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