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Post by Duragizer on Dec 12, 2020 14:34:50 GMT -5
Which reminds me of John Byrne's "solution" to the 'Lois suspects Clark is Superman' dilemma. I wish I could say this one was immediately retconned, but it was referred to at least once more after the fact. Even for John Byrne it was a stupid idea - Pa Kent explains to Lois that the reason Clark knows so much about the Post-Crisis Superman is because they're brothers. That at around the time Clark was born, they found baby Kal in his rocket and raised them as their own. At no point does Byrne ever explain just where his Superman was supposed to be during this time despite Lois knowing that photos exist of Clark as a child, records show that he went to school, he's got trophies of his football accomplishments, etc, etc. Was Byrne's Superman just silently sitting in a darkened attic slowly morphing his features into that of his "brother" Clark? Never mind the whole "then why don't the two of you ever act like you're brothers or hang out together?" logical follow-up question.
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Post by zaku on Dec 13, 2020 5:44:17 GMT -5
I know that a lot of old fans didn't like that, but I appreciated when Superman has recently revealed his secret identity to the world (even if I sincerely doubt that it will stick).
Yes, "Champion of Truth and Justice", except when he is actively lying to people he claims are his friends, and humiliating, gaslighting and making to doubt about her own mental health a woman he has sworn eternal love to, only because she is right about his secret identity.
"Oh Lois, I know you lived incredible adventures, you have repeatedly shown that you can look after yourself and I don't even know how many times you have been kidnapped because you are the 'Superman's Girlfriend' but I can reveal my secret identity for your own sake!"
Gosh, what a colossal d**k the Pre-Crisis Superman was...
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Post by profh0011 on Dec 13, 2020 11:33:58 GMT -5
"Name a storyline that was retconned because it was terrible"The entire Pre-Crisis SUPERMAN continuity.
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Post by zaku on Dec 13, 2020 12:05:50 GMT -5
"Name a storyline that was retconned because it was terrible"The entire Pre-Crisis SUPERMAN continuity.
My God, you got it! Consider that this was in continuity until the last issue before the reboot.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2020 13:04:30 GMT -5
"Name a storyline that was retconned because it was terrible"The entire Pre-Crisis SUPERMAN continuity.
I've always said that was the true reason for the Crisis - for DC to completely disconnect their comics from Silver Age goofiness.
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Post by zaku on Dec 13, 2020 13:11:54 GMT -5
"Name a storyline that was retconned because it was terrible"The entire Pre-Crisis SUPERMAN continuity. I've always said that was the true reason for the Crisis - for DC to completely disconnect their comics from Silver Age goofiness. Imagine no Crisis, and a Superman who has to explain TODAY why he thought it was a good idea to spank an adult woman against her will, or when he abandoned his cousin (a teen girl who had just lost her family and had just arrived in unknown world) in an orphanage literally MINUTES after he had just met her, or when he date raped a poor girl. (remember, all these things were in continuity until Byrne reboot) Really, every new author would be excited to write his/her version of Avengers Annual #10 (where Claremont had to painful explain that's is NOT OK to leave a raped woman in the hands of her rapist, while smiling and waving). But, unlike Claremont, they would have DECADES of similar stories at their disposal... Yes, I know, It was the Silver Age, it was a different time etc, still, like I said, every. One. Of. These. Stories was in continuity until the last moment before the reboot.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,051
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Post by Confessor on Dec 13, 2020 13:33:43 GMT -5
Jeez, you guys sure hate fun comics.
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Post by zaku on Dec 13, 2020 13:44:58 GMT -5
Jeez, you guys sure hate fun comics. THERE'S NO SUCH THING! Comics are a deadly serious business!
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Post by Prince Hal on Dec 13, 2020 13:58:26 GMT -5
I've always said that was the true reason for the Crisis - for DC to completely disconnect their comics from Silver Age goofiness. Imagine no Crisis, and a Superman who has to explain TODAY why he thought it was a good idea to spank an adult woman against her will, or when he abandoned his cousin (a teen girl who had just lost her family and had just arrived in unknown world) in an orphanage literally MINUTES after he had just met her, or when he date raped a poor girl. (remember, all these things were in continuity until Byrne reboot) Really, every new author would be excited to write his/her version of Avengers Annual #10 (where Claremont had to painful explain that's is NOT OK to leave a raped woman in the hands of her rapist, while smiling and waving). But, unlike Claremont, they would have DECADES of similar stories at their disposal... Yes, I know, It was the Silver Age, it was a different time etc, still, like I said, every. One. Of. These. Stories was in continuity until the last moment before the reboot. IF you are a continuity-obsessed writer or reader who dismisses a well told story because of an insistence that it must somehow be wedged into a tight little box called Canon, even stories that were products of their times over half a century ago, written for kids who would soon enough be moving on to more challenging reading. Kids, by the way, who were more than used to the tropes and conventions of myths, legends and fairy tales, genres into which the Superman/ Supergirl scenario you describe would have fit quite nicely. Ironically, continuity mattered almost not at all in the Silver Age, as it didn't in the ages of classical mythology, medieval romance, and Sherlock Holmes stories, among others.
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Post by zaku on Dec 13, 2020 14:19:44 GMT -5
Imagine no Crisis, and a Superman who has to explain TODAY why he thought it was a good idea to spank an adult woman against her will, or when he abandoned his cousin (a teen girl who had just lost her family and had just arrived in unknown world) in an orphanage literally MINUTES after he had just met her, or when he date raped a poor girl. (remember, all these things were in continuity until Byrne reboot) Really, every new author would be excited to write his/her version of Avengers Annual #10 (where Claremont had to painful explain that's is NOT OK to leave a raped woman in the hands of her rapist, while smiling and waving). But, unlike Claremont, they would have DECADES of similar stories at their disposal... Yes, I know, It was the Silver Age, it was a different time etc, still, like I said, every. One. Of. These. Stories was in continuity until the last moment before the reboot. IF you are a continuity-obsessed writer or reader who dismisses a well told story because of an insistence that it must somehow be wedged into a tight little box called Canon, even stories that were products of their times over half a century ago, written for kids who would soon enough be moving on to more challenging reading. Kids, by the way, who were more than used to the tropes and conventions of myths, legends and fairy tales, genres into which the Superman/ Supergirl scenario you describe would have fit quite nicely. Ironically, continuity mattered almost not at all in the Silver Age, as it didn't in the ages of classical mythology, medieval romance, and Sherlock Holmes stories, among others. I was talking about the hypothetical case in which Crisis didn't happen . Do you really think Superman would have gone through the whole period of deconstructivist comics unscathed? And, while I can certainly agree that obviously the silliest elements of the Silver Age would have been ignored in such a case, there are parts so integral to the Superman myth that one could not pretend they never happened (like the aforementioned abandonment of Supergirl in an orphanage and the continuous and sadistic humiliation of Lois Lane). But I'm not just talking about this or that particular episode of his adventures. I read a lot of Pre-Reboot Superman stories recently and he, right up until the end, always behaved like an insufferable self-righteous jerk to the people he called "friends". Byrne's Superman was a much better and wholesome person than his Bronze Age counterpart.
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Post by zaku on Dec 13, 2020 14:24:41 GMT -5
I suddenly imagined a scene where, after Superman asks Batman for the umpteenth time to impersonate Clark Kent to make fun of Lois Lane again, the Dark Knight replies: "You know what? I'm tired of continuing to participate in this ridiculous charade. I have a city to think about while you use your powers to make a woman believe she's hallucinating. "
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Post by Duragizer on Dec 13, 2020 15:10:26 GMT -5
"Name a storyline that was retconned because it was terrible"The entire Pre-Crisis SUPERMAN continuity.
Hey, now. The original Sieger-&-Shuster Superman is quintessential Superman.
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Post by zaku on Dec 13, 2020 16:54:48 GMT -5
"Name a storyline that was retconned because it was terrible"The entire Pre-Crisis SUPERMAN continuity.
Hey, now. The original Sieger-&-Shuster Superman is quintessential Superman. Absolutely. Let's say only the Silver Age/Bronze Age Superman..?
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Post by profh0011 on Dec 13, 2020 17:17:52 GMT -5
When I got my hands on several of the earliest Golden Age SUPERMAN Archive books, I noticed something interesting. Althbough when she debuted, Lois Lane was really a SHREW, after a few years, she had slowly started to mellow out, and began cutting Clark some breaks. They started to get along, and have mutual respect for each other. Reading those early-40s stories, I could easily see that they could easily lead, quite naturally, to the version of SUPERMAN I saw in the George Reeves TV series in the 50s. But NOT so much... the comics of the 50s and early 60s. What I took away from that realization was... that quite possibly, DC FIRING Siegel & Shuster was what led to Superman becoming the D*** so many modern fans look back on with contempt. In an odd way, Hollywood treated Superman and his cast better than the comics had. This exact same thing happened, in my view, to BATMAN in the 90s, when the WB cartoons portrayed Batman far, FAR better than he was under editor Denny "drag 'em thru the mud" O'Neil, the guy who made me come to HATE my previously-favorite costumed hero.
There were a few rare exceptions (moslty "LEGENDS OF THE DARK KNIGHT" stories under editor Archie Goodwin, done by Doug Moench & Paul Gulacy), but for the most part, I really got to HATE, and I mean REALLY HATE, the Post-Crisis Batman.
More recently, thanks to my best friend in Georgia, I finally got around to seeint the pilot episode of " LOIS AND CLARK: THE NEW ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN". The thing that most impressed me about that, was the way Lois developed in ONE two-hour story, in almost the identical way that Siegel & Shuster had done in theirh first several YEARS of the comics. She was a total B**** at the start of the story... but showed real potential as a character by the end. Amazing.
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Post by profh0011 on Dec 13, 2020 17:28:42 GMT -5
One of the most baffling developments following CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS was when Paul Levitz, who was trying his best NOT to completely reboot 28 consecutive years of LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES continuity, did that 4-part story where he revealed that the "Superboy" the Legion knew had "always" been from another dimension. ("Pocket Universe"-- sheesh.)
The side-effect of this was... that within that version of LEGION continuity, all pre-Crisis Superman stories were no longer valid... but, ironically, NEARLY ALL Superboy stories STILL WERE. Think on that one!
Unfortunately, at the end of the story, Superboy got KILLED. So, that version of him never did grow up to become Superman. Even at the time this happened, I felt it was completely uncalled-for.
And then... a few years later... SUPERMAN editor Mike Carlin-- who had nothing whatsoever to do with the LEGION book-- pushed his weight around, and ordered that Superboy NEVER appear in any future LEGION stores... and that, further, he never be MENTIONED... and that, further yet, he had "NEVER" been a member of the group. WTF?
This, of course, led Keith Giffen to pull a hissy-fit, and REBOOT Legion history TWICE in 2 months. An act which not only made the storyline he was already working on EVEN MORE difficult to follow at all... but which led, inexorably, to "ZERO HOUR", in order to finally sweep the pre-CRISIS Legion under the rug forever, and start an entirely new LEGION timeline, which would be in line with the Post-Crisis New DCU.
My best friend at the time said to me... "Why should I care about this, when they can REBOOT things again in another 5 years?" Boy, did he turn out to have CALLED THAT ONE better than he ever imagined.
What I could never figure... was why DC could go on having hundreds of "Elseworlds" versions of their characters... but somehow, there was an editorial edict to NEVER, EVER do any more "Earth-1" stories.
And then when someone DID... not only were most of the fans confused... but editorial made a big stink about it.
I think I'll just stick with my old comics and Archives.
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