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Post by Chris on Dec 5, 2020 17:49:32 GMT -5
In a FB group that I belong to they showed a comic from the Curt Swan era that had the same explanation. Byrne didn’t invent it. I'd like to see that. I'm no authority, but I can't recall a single instance of that concept appearing during Swan's decades on Superman. Unless it was in one of the comics he drew after the revamp. That was a trick which, I believe, originated with Jay Garrick during the Golden Age. Right. Did Byrne acknowledge it, i wonder, when he introduced to to his Superman stories? I don't think he did in the comics, but I seem to recall him mentioning it somewhere, maybe in an interview. Could have been in a text page in a comic, I guess.
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Post by Icctrombone on Dec 5, 2020 18:18:54 GMT -5
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Post by Chris on Dec 5, 2020 18:31:00 GMT -5
I don't like this idea at all. Are we expected to believe he keeps that up whenever he is in public, whether talking to people or fighting baddies. Nobody asks him "Superman why is your face doing that?"
As silly as it sometimes seems, I like the simplicity of glasses and combing his hair differently to keep up the Kent facade. (And possible the addition of a different walk/posture, as shown in All-Star Superman.)
That works perfectly well for me. That Clark Kent looks like Superman is a given, but why would that immediately make people think that Clark is Superman? Clark wears glasses, is mild-mannered, has a regular job, is very much unsuperman-like. To the average Metropolis citizen who actually has time to think about it, he just happens to kind of look like Superman, just as Brandon Routh kind of looks like Christopher Reeve. "Say, Kent, anyone ever told you you really look like Superman?" "Yes, I get that a lot. Beware of my X-ray vision, I can see your underwear!" "Gross! Grow up, Kent". It's hiding in plain sight, purloined letter style. i never saw why this was a problem. I used to work in a store and wear a uniform where there were a lot of regular customers, but outside of work people often didn't recognize me out of uniform, even though my face and hair hadn't changed at all. The only thing different was my shirt, and some of the time outside work I'd have a baseball cap. This happened all the time! I knew a few other people who worked uniformed jobs who said they experienced this too. Some cops also told me that people rarely recognize them out of uniform - people focus on the badge, not the face. ...and, as John Byrne himself so astutely noted, why would Joe and Jane Average think Superman even had a secret identity? Cei-U! I summon the big question! I personally don't think that it's all that strong an idea - people are going to eventually wonder, "Where does that guy go to take a break?" - but it's not actually a bad idea on the face of it. The problem with Byrne's use of it was the timing - he introduced the concept when DC was tightening up their continuity to restrictive levels, and the world had a decades-long history of people in capes and costumes who had secret civilian identities. There was even one such hero who went without a mask just like Superman and blurred his face using his super-speed powers. Jay Garrick, of course. Black Condor didn't use a mask either. So by the time Superman appears in such a world, the idea of anyone in a cape having a "secret identity" is so firmly entrenched that it's hard to not wonder about it. If Byrne had been working with more separation from the rest of DC's universe, it might have worked better. But when his Superman was interacting with other DC characters at least once a month, it kind of pops the bubble.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,051
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Post by Confessor on Dec 6, 2020 5:12:08 GMT -5
Just reminded by Icctrombone's photos above, that I love Curt Swan's art on Superman. That's my Superman, right there.
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Post by brutalis on Dec 6, 2020 11:34:40 GMT -5
Just reminded by Icctrombone's photos above, that I love Curt Swan's art on Superman. That's my Superman, right there. Right there beside you! Swan Superman will always be MY envisioned Superman in my mind with Garcia-Lopez a very close 2nd.
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Post by tarkintino on Dec 6, 2020 12:33:14 GMT -5
That Clark Kent looks like Superman is a given, but why would that immediately make people think that Clark is Superman? One, because the readers did not buy it. They're operating from a real world, common sense perspective, and if a "regular" around town hits the scene at the same time and almost always in the same city as the superhero--and they look alike, readers would expect that characters should be a bit suspicious about the timing, or just suspect Kent and Superman are one and the same. This would not be a problem if Superman wore some kind of mask or helmet (think Dr. Fate). But, the whole "will Lois put two and two together" sub-plot could not have been mined for generations if Clark did not look like "the other guy."
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Post by zaku on Dec 6, 2020 14:49:07 GMT -5
Question, why did people in the pre-Crisis continuity believe that Superman had a secret identity?
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Post by brutalis on Dec 6, 2020 15:12:28 GMT -5
Question, why did people in the pre-Crisis continuity believe that Superman had a secret identity? Because being a superhero doesn't pay the monthly bills. How would Superman file his taxes? Buy his groceries? Gotta have a secret persona for the mundane reality to keep Uncle Sam happy.
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Post by Icctrombone on Dec 6, 2020 15:36:39 GMT -5
Question, why did people in the pre-Crisis continuity believe that Superman had a secret identity? Because being a superhero doesn't pay the monthly bills. How would Superman file his taxes? Buy his groceries? Gotta have a secret persona for the mundane reality to keep Uncle Sam happy. For sure Superman could live off the grid if anyone could. He would have to do something for food, living quarters, etc, though.
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Post by Cei-U! on Dec 6, 2020 17:40:36 GMT -5
The public was aware of his Fortress of Solitude, so they may have assumed he lived there when not on duty. Thus, no need for rent, utilities, etc.
Cei-U! I summon the home sweet home!
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Post by Duragizer on Dec 11, 2020 18:08:54 GMT -5
Question, why did people in the pre-Crisis continuity believe that Superman had a secret identity? This was actually revealed in one of the early Siegel-&-Shuster stories. Clark changed into Superman in an alley, and right as he was leaving the scene, a man found the suit of clothes he left behind, allowing him to put two-&-two together and, presumably, spread the word. Sorry I can't recall which title/issue that was.
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Post by zaku on Dec 11, 2020 18:16:16 GMT -5
Question, why did people in the pre-Crisis continuity believe that Superman had a secret identity? Because being a superhero doesn't pay the monthly bills. How would Superman file his taxes? Buy his groceries? Gotta have a secret persona for the mundane reality to keep Uncle Sam happy. People in the pre-crisis continuity knew that he was an alien (he revealed that to the world in New Adventures of Superboy #12). Why would one think he did worldly things like eating and paying taxes? And considering that he was the first superhero of Earth 1 and he didn't wear a mask, why would people would believe that he had a secret identity (when he was Superboy other masked superhero didn't exist, so no one automatically could assume superhero=secret identity)? EDIT Question, why did people in the pre-Crisis continuity believe that Superman had a secret identity? This was actually revealed in one of the early Siegel-&-Shuster stories. Clark changed into Superman in an alley, and right as he was leaving the scene, a man found the suit of clothes he left behind, allowing him to put two-&-two together and, presumably, spread the word. Sorry I can't recall which title/issue that was. Just read this, thank you! Still it doesn't explain why they believed Superboy had a secret identity...
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Post by chadwilliam on Dec 12, 2020 1:35:42 GMT -5
Question, why did people in the pre-Crisis continuity believe that Superman had a secret identity? This was actually revealed in one of the early Siegel-&-Shuster stories. Clark changed into Superman in an alley, and right as he was leaving the scene, a man found the suit of clothes he left behind, allowing him to put two-&-two together and, presumably, spread the word. Sorry I can't recall which title/issue that was. Action Comics #9 "$5000 Reward for Superman"Though John Byrne snidely liked to ask "When was Superman stupid enough to tell people he had a secret identity?" he wasn't the only one limited in his imagination in this way. I was surprised to find that going back at least as far Action Comics #245 it was something that hadn't occurred to Zak-Kul, renegade Kryptonian scientist either. Impersonating Superman and using this opportunity to propose to Lois Lane who naturally asks about his secret identity, the phony man of steel's jaw drops and a horrified look appears on his face. "Secret Identity??? I... I didn't know Superman had one!" Of course, when Superman spends 99% of his time in Metropolis, I think people are going to think of him as living in their city and since no 'Superman' appears in the phone book or is known to own a house or rent an apartment under that name...
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Post by tarkintino on Dec 12, 2020 9:18:27 GMT -5
Of course, when Superman spends 99% of his time in Metropolis, I think people are going to think of him as living in their city and since no 'Superman' appears in the phone book or is known to own a house or rent an apartment under that name... Exactly. The citizens of Metropolis (heck, the world) would need to be exceptionally dim to think permanent resident Superman is not walking among them in a secret identity. There's that common sense thing again: like the eyeglasses being a poor disguise (from the view of readers not buying so simple a disguise), Superman spending most of his time in one city, and thinking no one is going to guess, or never figure his I.D. out was a silly misstep of the Superman comics.
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Post by chadwilliam on Dec 12, 2020 11:49:48 GMT -5
Because being a superhero doesn't pay the monthly bills. How would Superman file his taxes? Buy his groceries? Gotta have a secret persona for the mundane reality to keep Uncle Sam happy. People in the pre-crisis continuity knew that he was an alien (he revealed that to the world in New Adventures of Superboy #12). Why would one think he did worldly things like eating and paying taxes? And considering that he was the first superhero of Earth 1 and he didn't wear a mask, why would people would believe that he had a secret identity (when he was Superboy other masked superhero didn't exist, so no one automatically could assume superhero=secret identity)? EDIT This was actually revealed in one of the early Siegel-&-Shuster stories. Clark changed into Superman in an alley, and right as he was leaving the scene, a man found the suit of clothes he left behind, allowing him to put two-&-two together and, presumably, spread the word. Sorry I can't recall which title/issue that was. Just read this, thank you! Still it doesn't explain why they believed Superboy had a secret identity... I don't know if there's a Superboy equivalent to that issue of Action Comics Duragizer cited, but I think once the world knows you came from Krypton as a baby then it stands to reason that you weren't changing your own diapers. Of course, there was also Lana blabbing her mouth off about her suspicions that Clark and Superboy were one and the same and in a small town too. Even though I knew that neither she nor Lois would ever confirm that they were 100% certain of Superboy/man's secret so as to protect that information, I also knew that when they were 90% certain they never missed an opportunity to bring it up in public and often in front of other reporters/townsfolk. Had I lived in Smallville/Metropolis and suddenly Lana/Lois gets tightlipped, then I would immediately know that something was up. Which reminds me of John Byrne's "solution" to the 'Lois suspects Clark is Superman' dilemma. I wish I could say this one was immediately retconned, but it was referred to at least once more after the fact. Even for John Byrne it was a stupid idea - Pa Kent explains to Lois that the reason Clark knows so much about the Post-Crisis Superman is because they're brothers. That at around the time Clark was born, they found baby Kal in his rocket and raised them as their own. At no point does Byrne ever explain just where his Superman was supposed to be during this time despite Lois knowing that photos exist of Clark as a child, records show that he went to school, he's got trophies of his football accomplishments, etc, etc. Was Byrne's Superman just silently sitting in a darkened attic slowly morphing his features into that of his "brother" Clark? Never mind the whole "then why don't the two of you ever act like you're brothers or hang out together?" logical follow-up question. Lois: So I guess I'll be seeing the two of you together all the time from now on, Clark! At least on holidays anyway! Pa Kent (whispering): Don't worry son. I'll take off my glasses, put on a girdle and spare Superman outfit, and she won't know the difference.
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