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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 17, 2016 19:45:10 GMT -5
Do they sell that well year after year though? Other than things like the Dork Diaries I don't see many repeats on Brian Hibbs list that aren't big in the direct market, while on the other side of the coin something like the Court of Owls has continued to put up strong numbers since its release in 2012 despite only a short stint on the NYT bestsellers list. I think the NYT list is compiled weekly, I'd imagine they have to continue to sell well to remain on the list. Current list doesn't have a single super hero comic on it. There are two licensed comics with movie tie ins at the bottom of the list. Star Wars. At the bottom of the list. With a billion dollar movie tie in. Otherwise it's all creator owned stuff, with 3 of them having been on the list consecutively for over a year. Star Wars barely cracked the top ten for three weeks and looks to be on it's way out. Raina Telgemeier is sweeping the top ten list through her output at Scholastix, which I don't even think has direct market distribution at all. Her numbers are in large part thanks to libraries and school book fairs, but the fact that they are kid friendly cannot be discounted either. Back when Spiderman and Batman were kid friendly and the same demographic who is now buying Smile and Sisters would have been buying Detective and ASM, those comics were selling six figures monthly without relying on renumbering, gimmick deaths, events, or variant covers. Amazon has one super hero comic in it's top 20 bestsellers. Killing Joke. 30 years old. But it does have a Stan Lee graphic memoir at #1. Which I think just further illustrates that there WOULD be huge demand for super hero comics, if they weren't what they are. I'm not talking weekly, I'm talking yearly, and as I said out side of stuff like the Dork Diaries and the Wimpy Kid books despite selling well initially these books haven't continued to make Hibb's list for multiple years; this isn't to knock these independent titles but to point out that they aren't the end all and be all and that though they may out sell books like Batman that those books have long lives which certainly counts for a lot. From the Hibbs report: They may not crack the best sellers list but these books are none the less popular and they sell well year in and year out so you can't say the stories are too complicated to connect to a wider audience, so then it seems to a matter of vehicle for their dispersal, and its a question that DC seems to be taking seriously as they continue to shorten the window between the first run and the collected edition comes out and they're experimenting with OGNs that are marketed towards the book store crowd.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2016 21:10:16 GMT -5
I don't see that as the books being popular, if none of them crack a top sellers list. Especially considering the licenses within those books are as popular as any license on the planet. I mean DC and Marvel heroes are comparable to Mickey Mouse in popularity. But their comics can't top some autobiographical tale by some person nobody ever heard of. Their Avengers movies can't create Avengers readers. DC as a publisher overall is one of the top publishers because the staggering number of their low selling offerings dwarf most other publishers in the field of graphic novels. So they can sell a thousand copies of a thousand different offerings and do more volume, but that doesn't make any single offering of theirs popular. And while Marvel and DC can't translate HUGE pop culture appeal to their licenses into comic book sales, Walking Dead and Scott Pilgrim can. The reason? Probably because of those reasons stated in the OP, preventing newcomers from being avid followers of the comics based on the movies they follow. There is no reason the most popular intellectual property on the planet can't get mainstream appeal in their comics, unless something about the comics is preventing it from happening. As far as making the list multiple years, there's only three things on the NYT bestsellers list that have been on the list for a year or longer. Two of them have been on the list multiple years. Neither of them were Wimpy Kid or Dork diaries. Drama has been a bestseller for 127 consecutive weeks. Currently at #1 Smile has been a bestseller for 187 weeks. Currently at #4 Sisters has been a bestseller for 70 weeks. Currently at #5 Incidentally, they're all from the same author (who has two more books on the list as well). But Saga vol. 5 and Walking Dead compendium 3 are on there. I don't check the lists weekly, but I haven't checked the list and seen it absent of Saga or Walking Dead since I started looking at the lists, over a year ago. www.nytimes.com/best-sellers-books/2016-01-17/paperback-graphic-books/list.html
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2016 21:16:09 GMT -5
Looking back, it hasn't been since October that any super hero comic made that list. Batman vol. 6 was on it for a single week before dropping off. And you know it's never returning. Sales of Batman vol. 6 don't increase once the initial orders have gone out. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it's now out of print.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 17, 2016 21:22:54 GMT -5
I don't see that as the books being popular, if none of them crack a top sellers list. Especially considering the licenses within those books are as popular as any license on the planet. I mean DC and Marvel heroes are comparable to Mickey Mouse in popularity. But their comics can't top some autobiographical tale by some person nobody ever heard of. Their Avengers movies can't create Avengers readers. DC as a publisher overall is one of the top publishers because the staggering number of their low selling offerings dwarf most other publishers in the field of graphic novels. So they can sell a thousand copies of a thousand different offerings and do more volume, but that doesn't make any single offering of theirs popular. And while Marvel and DC can't translate HUGE pop culture appeal to their licenses into comic book sales, Walking Dead and Scott Pilgrim can. The reason? Probably because of those reasons stated in the OP, preventing newcomers from being avid followers of the comics based on the movies they follow. There is no reason the most popular intellectual property on the planet can't get mainstream appeal in their comics, unless something about the comics is preventing it from happening. As far as making the list multiple years, there's only three things on the NYT bestsellers list that have been on the list for a year or longer. Two of them have been on the list multiple years. Neither of them were Wimpy Kid or Dork diaries. Drama has been a bestseller for 127 consecutive weeks. Currently at #1 Smile has been a bestseller for 187 weeks. Currently at #4 Sisters has been a bestseller for 70 weeks. Currently at #5 Incidentally, they're all from the same author (who has two more books on the list as well). But Saga vol. 5 and Walking Dead compendium 3 are on there. I don't check the lists weekly, but I haven't checked the list and seen it absent of Saga or Walking Dead since I started looking at the lists, over a year ago. www.nytimes.com/best-sellers-books/2016-01-17/paperback-graphic-books/list.htmlSo you disagree with Hibbs analysis that DC's out put is encouraging, I guess that's fair but I certainly line up with his views.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2016 21:45:01 GMT -5
The only caveat I will mention with DCs sales as reported by Hibbs-he makes a point to say it is the evergreen titles that keep DC at the forefront, not the new releases coming from the collections of monthly continuity driven books. Most of DC's evergreen books are either self-contained stories (THe Dark Knight, Year One, Killing Joke, Watchmen) or parts of finite series (Sandman, Preacher, Fables, etc.) not stuff that comes form the never-ending monthly grind comics. The ones that do come form it tend to be anthology collections (The Greatest Batman Stories ever Told type books, the recent 75th anniversary editions, etc.) and not the longass ongoing stories in tpb form that get one printing and done, and are out of print when they sell through the initial print. Batman being the exception because well Batman, and it is just Snyder's Batman that is the exception, not ther collections of Detective, Batman: Dark Night, Batman/Superman, Batman & Robin) or any other contemporary Batbook that makes the transition into evergreen territory.
Most of the evergreen sales that propel DC in the bookscan trade are stories that have a beginning, middle and end in the book or finite series, and do not require the reader to follow a long drawn out never-ending story the way monthly comics do in whatever format they are releaed in (digital, single issue or trade collections). This is also true of the many indy/creator-owned books in comic format that do well in the book trade. For me, the lesson here is not the a particular publisher, or character type, or genre is the key to success, but the storytelling format, skills, and goals that are the focus of the release. Stories that have a beginning, middle end, or series that as a whole present a story that does, do relatively well in the book trade outside the normal customer base of the comic shop-whether that is Killing Joke, Sandman, March Book One or whatever. Books that are part of an ongoing sprawling never-ending story that can never give the customer the satisfaction of an ending with closure on the story don't do well with audiences (except with the hardcore audience seeking their next fix and who hope it never ends-and that audience isn't served by the outlets Bookscans services, they are served by Diamond).
-M
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2016 22:05:38 GMT -5
I don't see that as the books being popular, if none of them crack a top sellers list. Especially considering the licenses within those books are as popular as any license on the planet. I mean DC and Marvel heroes are comparable to Mickey Mouse in popularity. But their comics can't top some autobiographical tale by some person nobody ever heard of. Their Avengers movies can't create Avengers readers. DC as a publisher overall is one of the top publishers because the staggering number of their low selling offerings dwarf most other publishers in the field of graphic novels. So they can sell a thousand copies of a thousand different offerings and do more volume, but that doesn't make any single offering of theirs popular. And while Marvel and DC can't translate HUGE pop culture appeal to their licenses into comic book sales, Walking Dead and Scott Pilgrim can. The reason? Probably because of those reasons stated in the OP, preventing newcomers from being avid followers of the comics based on the movies they follow. There is no reason the most popular intellectual property on the planet can't get mainstream appeal in their comics, unless something about the comics is preventing it from happening. As far as making the list multiple years, there's only three things on the NYT bestsellers list that have been on the list for a year or longer. Two of them have been on the list multiple years. Neither of them were Wimpy Kid or Dork diaries. Drama has been a bestseller for 127 consecutive weeks. Currently at #1 Smile has been a bestseller for 187 weeks. Currently at #4 Sisters has been a bestseller for 70 weeks. Currently at #5 Incidentally, they're all from the same author (who has two more books on the list as well). But Saga vol. 5 and Walking Dead compendium 3 are on there. I don't check the lists weekly, but I haven't checked the list and seen it absent of Saga or Walking Dead since I started looking at the lists, over a year ago. www.nytimes.com/best-sellers-books/2016-01-17/paperback-graphic-books/list.htmlSo you disagree with Hibbs analysis that DC's out put is encouraging, I guess that's fair but I certainly line up with his views. Yes. Considering those same characters guarantee built in sales in every other form of media. Tv shows, tee shirts, toys, video games, movies, lunch boxes, Legos, Halloween costumes, sneakers, extra value meals, and anything else you can stick The Flash on. It's interesting that outside the direct market their comics have trouble keeping up with ONI Press or Scholastic and their offerings. A billion dollar movie is how many ticket sales, a hundred million? How many of those people went out and bought an Avengers comic, fifty thousand? Less? Was there a sales bump at all for Avengers? I think the Walking Dead tv show could be responsible for increasing the sales of the comic five to ten fold.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 17, 2016 22:12:34 GMT -5
There's certainly room for improvement, and I think there are some efforts to do just that but I don't think the evidence points to the narratives being too impenetrable as the reason that sales aren't higher.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 17, 2016 22:16:38 GMT -5
The only caveat I will mention with DCs sales as reported by Hibbs-he makes a point to say it is the evergreen titles that keep DC at the forefront, not the new releases coming from the collections of monthly continuity driven books. Most of DC's evergreen books are either self-contained stories (THe Dark Knight, Year One, Killing Joke, Watchmen) or parts of finite series (Sandman, Preacher, Fables, etc.) not stuff that comes form the never-ending monthly grind comics. The ones that do come form it tend to be anthology collections (The Greatest Batman Stories ever Told type books, the recent 75th anniversary editions, etc.) and not the longass ongoing stories in tpb form that get one printing and done, and are out of print when they sell through the initial print. Batman being the exception because well Batman, and it is just Snyder's Batman that is the exception, not ther collections of Detective, Batman: Dark Night, Batman/Superman, Batman & Robin) or any other contemporary Batbook that makes the transition into evergreen territory. Most of the evergreen sales that propel DC in the bookscan trade are stories that have a beginning, middle and end in the book or finite series, and do not require the reader to follow a long drawn out never-ending story the way monthly comics do in whatever format they are releaed in (digital, single issue or trade collections). This is also true of the many indy/creator-owned books in comic format that do well in the book trade. For me, the lesson here is not the a particular publisher, or character type, or genre is the key to success, but the storytelling format, skills, and goals that are the focus of the release. Stories that have a beginning, middle end, or series that as a whole present a story that does, do relatively well in the book trade outside the normal customer base of the comic shop-whether that is Killing Joke, Sandman, March Book One or whatever. Books that are part of an ongoing sprawling never-ending story that can never give the customer the satisfaction of an ending with closure on the story don't do well with audiences (except with the hardcore audience seeking their next fix and who hope it never ends-and that audience isn't served by the outlets Bookscans services, they are served by Diamond). -M I can't really think of a modern on going that doesn't rely on tightly constructed arks that each have their own beginning, middles and ends so I don't think that's an issue either.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2016 22:21:21 GMT -5
The only caveat I will mention with DCs sales as reported by Hibbs-he makes a point to say it is the evergreen titles that keep DC at the forefront, not the new releases coming from the collections of monthly continuity driven books. Most of DC's evergreen books are either self-contained stories (THe Dark Knight, Year One, Killing Joke, Watchmen) or parts of finite series (Sandman, Preacher, Fables, etc.) not stuff that comes form the never-ending monthly grind comics. The ones that do come form it tend to be anthology collections (The Greatest Batman Stories ever Told type books, the recent 75th anniversary editions, etc.) and not the longass ongoing stories in tpb form that get one printing and done, and are out of print when they sell through the initial print. Batman being the exception because well Batman, and it is just Snyder's Batman that is the exception, not ther collections of Detective, Batman: Dark Night, Batman/Superman, Batman & Robin) or any other contemporary Batbook that makes the transition into evergreen territory. Most of the evergreen sales that propel DC in the bookscan trade are stories that have a beginning, middle and end in the book or finite series, and do not require the reader to follow a long drawn out never-ending story the way monthly comics do in whatever format they are releaed in (digital, single issue or trade collections). This is also true of the many indy/creator-owned books in comic format that do well in the book trade. For me, the lesson here is not the a particular publisher, or character type, or genre is the key to success, but the storytelling format, skills, and goals that are the focus of the release. Stories that have a beginning, middle end, or series that as a whole present a story that does, do relatively well in the book trade outside the normal customer base of the comic shop-whether that is Killing Joke, Sandman, March Book One or whatever. Books that are part of an ongoing sprawling never-ending story that can never give the customer the satisfaction of an ending with closure on the story don't do well with audiences (except with the hardcore audience seeking their next fix and who hope it never ends-and that audience isn't served by the outlets Bookscans services, they are served by Diamond). -M I can't really think of a modern on going that doesn't rely on tightly constructed arks that each have their own beginning, middles and ends so I don't think that's an issue either. So all those that tie into events or have other plots shoved into them (Villains month DC or Secret Wars or whatever) mainstian that tightly plotted arc that stands alone. You can read Detective Comics without reading the rest of Death of the Family in other books and get a full story or Action Comics and not read other Superman books for Doomed and get a complete story-and read Superior Spider-Man without prior knowledge form other stories who Dr. Octopus is, and...etc. etc. etc. Yeah, they mave titled arcs, but those aren't self-contained stories that give closure with their endings. -M
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 17, 2016 22:35:09 GMT -5
I can't really think of a modern on going that doesn't rely on tightly constructed arks that each have their own beginning, middles and ends so I don't think that's an issue either. So all those that tie into events or have other plots shoved into them (Villains month DC or Secret Wars or whatever) mainstian that tightly plotted arc that stands alone. You can read Detective Comics without reading the rest of Death of the Family in other books and get a full story or Action Comics and not read other Superman books for Doomed and get a complete story-and read Superior Spider-Man without prior knowledge form other stories who Dr. Octopus is, and...etc. etc. etc. Yeah, they mave titled arcs, but those aren't self-contained stories that give closure with their endings. -M There are certainly exceptions, but the majority of the titles are fairly straight forward and are collected as such and are just about as stand alone as any other series of books. For instance in order to get into Batman: Court of Owls you don't need to know much else than the basic info about Batman and his cast of characters and although it does lead into the next volume City of Owls it had it's own satisfactory conclusion which is no different than say how the Harry Potter books are structured.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2016 22:41:02 GMT -5
So all those that tie into events or have other plots shoved into them (Villains month DC or Secret Wars or whatever) mainstian that tightly plotted arc that stands alone. You can read Detective Comics without reading the rest of Death of the Family in other books and get a full story or Action Comics and not read other Superman books for Doomed and get a complete story-and read Superior Spider-Man without prior knowledge form other stories who Dr. Octopus is, and...etc. etc. etc. Yeah, they mave titled arcs, but those aren't self-contained stories that give closure with their endings. -M There are certainly exceptions, but the majority of the titles are fairly straight forward and are collected as such and are just about as stand alone as any other series of books. For instance in order to get into Batman: Court of Owls you don't need to know much else than the basic info about Batman and his cast of characters and although it does lead into the next volume City of Owls it had it's own satisfactory conclusion. And as I said in my post, Batman by Snyder seems to be the exception (not the rule) for monthly books doing well in the mainstream. However, the remainder of the Batbooks, which have to take their cues from Snyder's big tent pole ideas and work around them in their own books do not do well because, those stories do not stand up on their own or have satisfying endings with closure because they have to take their cues form another book-i.e. Snyder's Batman. While Snyder's Batman doesn't need the other ancillary Bat-books to tell its story, oftentimes the ancillary Bat-books are dependent on the status quo established there to tell theirs, which limits their appeal and their success outside the hardcore audience. -M
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 17, 2016 22:47:35 GMT -5
There are certainly exceptions, but the majority of the titles are fairly straight forward and are collected as such and are just about as stand alone as any other series of books. For instance in order to get into Batman: Court of Owls you don't need to know much else than the basic info about Batman and his cast of characters and although it does lead into the next volume City of Owls it had it's own satisfactory conclusion. And as I said in my post, Batman by Snyder seems to be the exception (not the rule) for monthly books doing well in the mainstream. However, the remainder of the Batbooks, which have to take their cues from Snyder's big tent pole ideas and work around them in their own books do not do well because, those stories do not stand up on their own or have satisfying endings with closure because they have to take their cues form another book-i.e. Snyder's Batman. While Snyder's Batman doesn't need the other ancillary Bat-books to tell its story, oftentimes the ancillary Bat-books are dependent on the status quo established there to tell theirs, which limits their appeal and their success outside the hardcore audience. -M I just don't think they are marketed as well, for instance stories like Layman's Wrath story in Detective didn't need anything from what Snyder was doing to work and stood on its own just fine and the same could be said of many of the stories in Batgirl, Nightwing and Batman and Robin.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2016 22:55:02 GMT -5
And as I said in my post, Batman by Snyder seems to be the exception (not the rule) for monthly books doing well in the mainstream. However, the remainder of the Batbooks, which have to take their cues from Snyder's big tent pole ideas and work around them in their own books do not do well because, those stories do not stand up on their own or have satisfying endings with closure because they have to take their cues form another book-i.e. Snyder's Batman. While Snyder's Batman doesn't need the other ancillary Bat-books to tell its story, oftentimes the ancillary Bat-books are dependent on the status quo established there to tell theirs, which limits their appeal and their success outside the hardcore audience. -M I just don't think they are marketed as well, for instance stories like Layman's Wrath story in Detective didn't need anything from what Snyder was doing to work and stood on its own just fine and the same could be said of many of the stories in Batgirl, Nightwing and Batman and Robin. If you read all of say Simone's Batgirl (before the Burside era Batgirl starts) does the story come to a significant ending with closure? Closure (not a lurching stop) is important to mainstream audiences. Look at the interest final episodes of long ruunning series draw even from viewers who may have stopped watching the show previously. They want that ending that closes the door on story. Not the story just stopping, but all the ends tied up, and a sense of it's done. Most mainstream monthly comics don't give that even when sectioned into titled arcs. Watchmen has such an ending. Batman Year One has such an ending even if Batman has most of his career in front of him the story of how he became the Bat has that closure. Sandman has that closure. Layman's Detective does not. It's a story crafted for a niche audience in terms of its structures and assumptions. It's not built to succeed with a mainstream audience no matter how you market it. -M
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 18, 2016 10:55:07 GMT -5
I just don't think they are marketed as well, for instance stories like Layman's Wrath story in Detective didn't need anything from what Snyder was doing to work and stood on its own just fine and the same could be said of many of the stories in Batgirl, Nightwing and Batman and Robin. If you read all of say Simone's Batgirl (before the Burside era Batgirl starts) does the story come to a significant ending with closure? Closure (not a lurching stop) is important to mainstream audiences. Look at the interest final episodes of long ruunning series draw even from viewers who may have stopped watching the show previously. They want that ending that closes the door on story. Not the story just stopping, but all the ends tied up, and a sense of it's done. Most mainstream monthly comics don't give that even when sectioned into titled arcs. Watchmen has such an ending. Batman Year One has such an ending even if Batman has most of his career in front of him the story of how he became the Bat has that closure. Sandman has that closure. Layman's Detective does not. It's a story crafted for a niche audience in terms of its structures and assumptions. It's not built to succeed with a mainstream audience no matter how you market it. -M Their runs don't have definitive endings but they weren't meant to (so there is little point in bringing that in) but the individual arcs did in much the same way that Year One did so I'm not sure how you can hold that story up in one hand but dismiss the others on the other.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2016 11:16:35 GMT -5
If you read all of say Simone's Batgirl (before the Burside era Batgirl starts) does the story come to a significant ending with closure? Closure (not a lurching stop) is important to mainstream audiences. Look at the interest final episodes of long ruunning series draw even from viewers who may have stopped watching the show previously. They want that ending that closes the door on story. Not the story just stopping, but all the ends tied up, and a sense of it's done. Most mainstream monthly comics don't give that even when sectioned into titled arcs. Watchmen has such an ending. Batman Year One has such an ending even if Batman has most of his career in front of him the story of how he became the Bat has that closure. Sandman has that closure. Layman's Detective does not. It's a story crafted for a niche audience in terms of its structures and assumptions. It's not built to succeed with a mainstream audience no matter how you market it. -M Their runs don't have definitive endings but they weren't meant to (so there is little point in bringing that in) but the individual arcs did in much the same way that Year One did so I'm not sure how you can hold that story up in one hand but dismiss the others on the other. But the fact they don't have definitive endings is exactly my point-that's why they will never resonate with mainstream audiences. The ending is the most important part of the story in terms of lasting impression and affection with mainstream audiences. The fact ongoing comics don't do them well, or at all is one of the single biggest reasons that they will never be more than a niche. When you look at comics that sell of super-hero stories in other mediums that do do well with mainstream audiences, they almost universally have a strong or definitive ending that offers closure to the audience. You can still tell further stories with the characters sure, but the ending offers closure if you stop there. Monthyl comics, even those divided into arcs, don't often do that and rarely do it well when they do. The fact they're not meant to have an ending is not something irrelevant to handwave away, it is the core of the problem. Audiences may invest in a big backstory (i.e. the continuity) if it has a payoff. That payoff has to be an ending with closure though, or the whole story is pointless, and mainstream audiences will consider it a waste of time and effort without that being present. The fact you have to go 6 months to get the whole story nad then it has no payoff when it ends-not going to go over well with mainstream audiences, and sales reflect that. -M
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