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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jan 6, 2016 14:59:49 GMT -5
I was thinking the Daredevil series was after that report.. but yeah, there was that horrible movie, I suppose that does count  . Ms. Marvel vol. 1 is currently #3503 on the Amazon Sales list (total)... #7 for Marvel products (behind 4 Star Wars TPB), Civil War, and a weird kids book that's not actually a comic). Of Marvels current top 20 on Amazon: The top 20 graphic Novels (all of them, not just Marvel) have several things that aren't comics... a disney princess coloring book is #2, and the 2016 Dilbert day by day calendar is #1. Of the comics, you have a couple walking dead compendiums, Civl War (which is #20... it's #842 overall, so pretty far ahead of Ms. Marvel).. a few Star Wars, Alison Bechdel's Fun Home, Persepolis, a couple weird things, Saga, Sandman: Overture, and a few Manga. Amazon isn't the be all and end all, obviously, but I'd say it's probably pretty typical.. it's not like they have stores that can push particular things, they sell everything and people buy what they want. Don't forget the even worse Elektra movie So yes, all in all, we agree that even if the global international market is a crucial part in terms of US superhero comic sales, we'd be expected to think that the market it'd fare the easiest in would be its own US one. Yet we see that the top seller non multimedia pure superhero comicbooks are selling pretty low in regards of those expectations, which is sad but not that surprising imho. The structural evolution of entertainment isn't doing SHCB any good when it now offers the audience a spectacle as mighty as an old cosmic Kirby title. I think that over here on these boards, we all are comic book enthusiasts above all, and as the Christmas Top 12 lists indicate, the majority of us have very wide taste in this medium. Superhero movies and TV series might create fans of te characters, let's not confuse that with comic book fans. The products and gratifications that current superhero comics offer don't match the level of entertainement that movie goers superhero fans get out of those, that's a given. Sure, Brubaker's Cap is vastly superior to the Winter Soldier movie, but in this age of instant gratification, plus the fact that the artist's style is a strong variable to the enjoyement factor, there's no way that casual superhero fans (the immense majority) can easily decide by themselves to cross over to comics. And then comes the budget factor we've all discussed... |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 6, 2016 15:00:54 GMT -5
We don't have the same activities though, US Football, Baseball and even Basketball are all part of popculture here and the interest else where is nearly non-existant, meanwhile sports like Soccer, Rugby and Cricket are huge in the UK, Australia and else where but are nearly unknown here. And while there are some musical artists with a global reach like U2, Sam Smith and the likes of Taylor Swift, Rihanna and Beyonce the majority of each countries top artists is different. And popular TV that people talk about around the water cooler at work? Outside of maybe something like the Game of Thrones there is very little crossover to speak of. And style of dress is different as well, for instance sneakers are probably the most common shoe for both men and women in the US but in mainland Europe unless I was in the gym I hardly ever saw a woman in sneakers and even in men it was uncommon to see them in sneakers and further there were two different bars that I tried to get into in Paris that wouldn't even let me in because I was wearing sneakers. Cargo shorts and over sized sweat shirts are also popular style here and again are seldom seen else where and probably one the most popular style items for men in the US is the Baseball cap which is also rare in other parts of the world. Movies tend to be the rule breaker however as what is popular in the states on film tend to be popular elsewhere too but one thing does not make a global mainstream of pop culture. As for comics, yes the US market is still the focus for Marvel and DC. Other than Batman: Europa I don't think there is currently a single comic being put out by the big two set out side of the US and there are no real big name heroes that are from outside the US outside of Wolverine. Their plots largely mirror US culture, when they make political references they are focused on US current events, and if they reference pop culture it's US based as well...and I don't see how that would mean there wouldn't be Vertigo as there are other tastes these publishers cater to as well, they just don't put the focus on them to the extent that they do on super heroes. And the review Hibbs gave isn't deeply flawed, it isn't an absolute snap shot of sales outside of the direct market as not every store uses book scan but many of the larger distributors like Barnes and Noble do so with that sample size one could reliably assume the US market as a whole isn't that different. And DC's highest dollar book was a mask/comic combo set, not it's best seller there's a difference there and they were not far away from the top seller's list as their highest hit was #27 which can hardly be said to be far from the top of the heap. Sports : all team sports developped by WASPs and televised, everyone aware of all of them, same companies advertise through all of those. Flavor of the day biggest mainstream singers are present in all western top billboards Macdonalds and Pizza hut are everywhere Nike and Addidas are everywhere, andeven if some very unmainstream spots in Paris don't alow sneakers, same goes with some places in NYC... Game of Thrones and The Office are everywhere (they make local versions of so many successfull TV shows now, like The Bridge, The Killing, Homeland or even Breaking Bad) Same companies own almost all of western medias. Brand loyalty is global, as are those brands, therefore the expression of a mainstream culture in our media society. English language is also a pivotal part of that mainstream culture. I don't percieve mainstream as pejorative, so I really don't see where you're going with all hte cultural exceptions/specificities Bottom line, the same type of food clothe and hobbies are available and mainstream in all of the mainstream world. About DC and Marvel focus being solely on the US market supposedly because they only publish one comic where the action is set there, I don't know what to answer you if you really feel that way. Of course I'm not talking about editorial geographical numbers, hahaha! I'm just saying that as with movies, DC and Marvel are fully aware thatinternational sales are as important as US ones, if not more. Many european comics have american characters and stories set there, yet they are mostly marketed towards the local market. I really fail to see the logic of your argument. And about the report being deeply flawed, when it's author self accounts that amongst other faults, the amount of reached bookstores might just be 50% lower than their believed 85% reach of bookstore chains, excluding any indie store or online bookclub/independant dealer or libraries, well yes I assume those numbers are just a deeply flawed statistical tool, an interesting one nevertheless  The differences in the sports are vast though, as are the cultures built around those sports; how you express you support, how you dress when attending the games and the jargon itself. And as I said while there are cross over musical talents many more of the popular songs vary by region, especially in the east which by population percentage would equate to more of the global mainstream if such a thing existed. And while DC and Marvel may care how the world feels about their movies as the global population is important in terms of ticket sales, the same is not true of the comics. There doesn't seem to be a concern for instance over whether the villains can be Asian for instance in the comics as there is no care over how that comic will sell in China, where as the opposite is true in terms of film where appealing to the Asian market often dictates elements of the film. And even at 50% lower it is still an accurate enough sample size to make assumptions based on the whole market, not deeply flawed. A sample size of only 10% is often large enough to accurately portray trends, so 50% would make it overkill. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jan 6, 2016 15:27:15 GMT -5
The differences in the sports are vast though, as are the cultures built around those sports; how you express you support, how you dress when attending the games and the jargon itself. And as I said while there are cross over musical talents many more of the popular songs vary by region, especially in the east which by population percentage would equate to more of the global mainstream if such a thing existed. And while DC and Marvel may care how the world feels about their movies as the global population is important in terms of ticket sales, the same is not true of the comics. There doesn't seem to be a concern for instance over whether the villains can be Asian for instance in the comics as there is no care over how that comic will sell in China, where as the opposite is true in terms of film where appealing to the Asian market often dictates elements of the film. And even at 50% lower it is still an accurate enough sample size to make assumptions based on the whole market, not deeply flawed. A sample size of only 10% is often large enough to accurately portray trends, so 50% would make it overkill. Frst of all, I hope it's a given that I find this discussion interesting and appreciate White Guardian's views and input, and am not in any way trying to antagonize him/you About the sports music fashion food etc, sorry but even if there obviously have very unique specifics, the reasons and means why/how people follow those are the same, the thinking is the same : you support your local team, your homeland or maybe the team you think is the best if you're a specialist of that sport. All those exist through the same pattern of comsumption : our buying of the products advertized around the fields or during the commercial breaks. Everyone in the world more or less play the same videogames, and depending on how urban and old your are or not, you'll more than often see the same type of food and fashion habits in SF or Amsterdam. Sure the sausages will be different, but you'll still pay around the same amount of money for food, and if you're in a hurry, in town, not a snob and not super health concious, you might very well end up pasing through McDonald, both in SF or Amsterdam... Look, this is an american forum, quite an open minded one. Yet, if you'd visit a french one on comics with the same level of activity, you'd find threads about sports, food, movies, toys, politics, just about the same concerns. Bottom line, there is a global mainstream culture, and probably a horrible one. But it is structural, and no one is 100% solely in it. It still is a usefull average to communicate I believe. It might have been different before the mid eighties, but the world just keeps getting smaller, trust me, while touring the world as a musical performer, you deeply feel this, and not necessarly in a good way. I actually like that superhero comics aren't mainstream anymore, those are an aquired taste : very few people will ever get the amount of available time we managed to invest in those and therefore will never be able to enjoy the JLA/JLI run that is currently being reviewed on these boards, and it's fine like that, especially since it structuraly couldn't be otherwise. Personnaly, because of the popularity of movies and TV superhero movies, I don't think that SHCB can ever grow much more popular then they are now : if you accept the concept of a global mainstream audience, they compete against each other more than they compliment each other, and quite logicaly so. And any inovation in format or distributon wouldn't drasticaly change that, not to the point that SHCB could ever become mainstream again. Mangas used to be mainstream in Japan, but after my most recent visits to Tokyo and Kyoto, that has changed a lot, partly because of this very same mainstream auudience culture. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 6, 2016 16:05:32 GMT -5
The differences in the sports are vast though, as are the cultures built around those sports; how you express you support, how you dress when attending the games and the jargon itself. And as I said while there are cross over musical talents many more of the popular songs vary by region, especially in the east which by population percentage would equate to more of the global mainstream if such a thing existed. And while DC and Marvel may care how the world feels about their movies as the global population is important in terms of ticket sales, the same is not true of the comics. There doesn't seem to be a concern for instance over whether the villains can be Asian for instance in the comics as there is no care over how that comic will sell in China, where as the opposite is true in terms of film where appealing to the Asian market often dictates elements of the film. And even at 50% lower it is still an accurate enough sample size to make assumptions based on the whole market, not deeply flawed. A sample size of only 10% is often large enough to accurately portray trends, so 50% would make it overkill. Frst of all, I hope it's a given that I find this discussion interesting and appreciate White Guardian's views and input, and am not in any way trying to antagonize him/you About the sports music fashion food etc, sorry but even if there obviously have very unique specifics, the reasons and means why/how people follow those are the same, the thinking is the same : you support your local team, your homeland or maybe the team you think is the best if you're a specialist of that sport. All those exist through the same pattern of comsumption : our buying of the products advertized around the fields or during the commercial breaks. Everyone in the world more or less play the same videogames, and depending on how urban and old your are or not, you'll more than often see the same type of food and fashion habits in SF or Amsterdam. Sure the sausages will be different, but you'll still pay around the same amount of money for food, and if you're in a hurry, in town, not a snob and not super health concious, you might very well end up pasing through McDonald, both in SF or Amsterdam... Look, this is an american forum, quite an open minded one. Yet, if you'd visit a french one on comics with the same level of activity, you'd find threads about sports, food, movies, toys, politics, just about the same concerns. Bottom line, there is a global mainstream culture, and probably a horrible one. But it is structural, and no one is 100% solely in it. It still is a usefull average to communicate I believe. It might have been different before the mid eighties, but the world just keeps getting smaller, trust me, while touring the world as a musical performer, you deeply feel this, and not necessarly in a good way. I actually like that superhero comics aren't mainstream anymore, those are an aquired taste : very few people will ever get the amount of available time we managed to invest in those and therefore will never be able to enjoy the JLA/JLI run that is currently being reviewed on these boards, and it's fine like that, especially since it structuraly couldn't be otherwise. Personnaly, because of the popularity of movies and TV superhero movies, I don't think that SHCB can ever grow much more popular then they are now : if you accept the concept of a global mainstream audience, they compete against each other more than they compliment each other, and quite logicaly so. And any inovation in format or distributon wouldn't drasticaly change that, not to the point that SHCB could ever become mainstream again. Mangas used to be mainstream in Japan, but after my most recent visits to Tokyo and Kyoto, that has changed a lot, partly because of this very same mainstream auudience culture. There are similarities in the broad strokes, sure we're all human so that's to be expected, but the specifics are vastly different and when talking about cultures the specifics are more important than the broad strokes. I mean, if we go with we all like the general idea of sport, listen to music and wear clothes then you've simplified it to the point that it's meaningless. Are the similarities growing greater as our technology increases? Yes, we grow closer every day and are much closer to being a true global community with a universal culture than we were in say the 80's but we are still very far from that goal, so far that saying their is a global mainstream is just crazy. If I were to conduct a global survey on what people saw as the most popular musical artist was, what their favorite TV show was, how they celebrated sport, what they thought was the most popular style I very much doubt we'd come to anything even remotely approaching a consensus, where as if you were to do the same on a national scale you'd find just the opposite and that's why you can't say there is a global main stream, and I don't think that was ever the point Scott made in the quotes brought forward by MRP. And I've yet to see any evidence that superhero comic books are not popular other than that they weren't in the NY Times top ten, but that isn't a complete picture of the market as I illustrated the sales are strong outside the direct market, and even in the direct market and we can hope that will continue to grow. Now, are the comics as popular as they once were? No, but they still are a part of mainstream pop culture here in the US it's only the means by which they are consumed that has changed. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jan 6, 2016 16:38:02 GMT -5
There are similarities in the broad strokes, sure we're all human so that's to be expected, but the specifics are vastly different and when talking about cultures the specifics are more important than the broad strokes. I mean, if we go with we all like the general idea of sport, listen to music and wear clothes then you've simplified it to the point that it's meaningless. Are the similarities growing greater as our technology increases? Yes, we grow closer every day and are much closer to being a true global community with a universal culture than we were in say the 80's but we are still very far from that goal, so far that saying their is a global mainstream is just crazy. If I were to conduct a global survey on what people saw as the most popular musical artist was, what their favorite TV show was, how they celebrated sport, what they thought was the most popular style I very much doubt we'd come to anything even remotely approaching a consensus, where as if you were to do the same on a national scale you'd find just the opposite and that's why you can't say there is a global main stream, and I don't think that was ever the point Scott made in the quotes brought forward by MRP. And I've yet to see any evidence that superhero comic books are not popular other than that they weren't in the NY Times top ten, but that isn't a complete picture of the market as I illustrated the sales are strong outside the direct market, and even in the direct market and we can hope that will continue to grow. Now, are the comics as popular as they once were? No, but they still are a part of mainstream pop culture here in the US it's only the means by which they are consumed that has changed. Well, the data and professionnal experiences I have point in the opposite. Compared to non western culture, there is a western culture, and within it a mainstream one, and as all culture, very much in flux. Working in sociology and then politics has showed me that on and on. And wheter something is popular or mainstream can vastly differ : the svastika is a popular symbol globaly recognised, yet, is it mainstream when it's banned in many countries? Afx twin is popular but not mainstream, yet he has influenced the mainstream in many ways. And if asked which artists are the most worldwide popular (not personnal favorites), if you ask by age category, you will get quite similar answers. It is easy to notice that Barbara Cartland, Agatha Christie, Tom Clancy or ms Harry Potter are amongst the most popular in the western world, you'll get a consensus on that fairly easily if you have a good sociologic grill model. Same goes with fine art, movies, pop artist, classical composers, soccer teams, soda, tv reality programs (those are the same everywhere to a certain degree). Also, the level of synchronicity in the modern world is astonishing, a major push towards a global culture. You can choose to focus on the exceptions and singularities, but if you do the opposite, it actually falls into place way easier than you picture it, and most of all thanks to advertising... The evidence about SHCB not being popular and mainstream was obvious from someone else posting of the numbers of US population and actual sales of SHCB. Superheroes are mainstream, globaly, that's impossible to deny, as well as I'd argue it would be impossible to convince a marketing director of a big corporation that the sales numbers of SHCB match the ones of a mainstream product, whethter it be in the US market or the international market. I'm sure they sell more T-Shirts with the Captain America Shield symbol in the world then they sell actual comics. And finally, SHCB are a very complicated product most of the time, one thatt requires context and explanation : If you'd tomorrow buy a 12 year old kid the latest issue #48 of Batman by Snyder and Capulo, undeniably the highest selling SHCB of the past 5 years, he'd probably find himself often lost and frustrated in it, which are not characteristics of a mainstream product, at all. For me, this all falls behind sheer logic, so I guess it will be difficult to reach an agreement on that one, but, hey, at least I guess our respective grills of analysis have now been well enough exposed |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 6, 2016 17:07:46 GMT -5
There are similarities in the broad strokes, sure we're all human so that's to be expected, but the specifics are vastly different and when talking about cultures the specifics are more important than the broad strokes. I mean, if we go with we all like the general idea of sport, listen to music and wear clothes then you've simplified it to the point that it's meaningless. Are the similarities growing greater as our technology increases? Yes, we grow closer every day and are much closer to being a true global community with a universal culture than we were in say the 80's but we are still very far from that goal, so far that saying their is a global mainstream is just crazy. If I were to conduct a global survey on what people saw as the most popular musical artist was, what their favorite TV show was, how they celebrated sport, what they thought was the most popular style I very much doubt we'd come to anything even remotely approaching a consensus, where as if you were to do the same on a national scale you'd find just the opposite and that's why you can't say there is a global main stream, and I don't think that was ever the point Scott made in the quotes brought forward by MRP. And I've yet to see any evidence that superhero comic books are not popular other than that they weren't in the NY Times top ten, but that isn't a complete picture of the market as I illustrated the sales are strong outside the direct market, and even in the direct market and we can hope that will continue to grow. Now, are the comics as popular as they once were? No, but they still are a part of mainstream pop culture here in the US it's only the means by which they are consumed that has changed. Well, the data and professionnal experiences I have point in the opposite. Compared to non western culture, there is a western culture, and within it a mainstream one, and as all culture, very much in flux. Working in sociology and then politics has showed me that on and on. And wheter something is popular or mainstream can vastly differ : the svastika is a popular symbol globaly recognised, yet, is it mainstream when it's banned in many countries? Afx twin is popular but not mainstream, yet he has influenced the mainstream in many ways. And if asked which artists are the most worldwide popular (not personnal favorites), if you ask by age category, you will get quite similar answers. It is easy to notice that Barbara Cartland, Agatha Christie, Tom Clancy or ms Harry Potter are amongst the most popular in the western world, you'll get a consensus on that fairly easily if you have a good sociologic grill model. Same goes with fine art, movies, pop artist, classical composers, soccer teams, soda, tv reality programs (those are the same everywhere to a certain degree). Also, the level of synchronicity in the modern world is astonishing, a major push towards a global culture. You can choose to focus on the exceptions and singularities, but if you do the opposite, it actually falls into place way easier than you picture it, and most of all thanks to advertising... The evidence about SHCB not being popular and mainstream was obvious from someone else posting of the numbers of US population and actual sales of SHCB. Superheroes are mainstream, globaly, that's impossible to deny, as well as I'd argue it would be impossible to convince a marketing director of a big corporation that the sales numbers of SHCB match the ones of a mainstream product, whethter it be in the US market or the international market. I'm sure they sell more T-Shirts with the Captain America Shield symbol in the world then they sell actual comics. And finally, SHCB are a very complicated product most of the time, one thatt requires context and explanation : If you'd tomorrow buy a 12 year old kid the latest issue #48 of Batman by Snyder and Capulo, undeniably the highest selling SHCB of the past 5 years, he'd probably find himself often lost and frustrated in it, which are not characteristics of a mainstream product, at all. For me, this all falls behind sheer logic, so I guess it will be difficult to reach an agreement on that one, but, hey, at least I guess our respective grills of analysis have now been well enough exposed I don't know if there is much scientific consensus that would back your assumption that there is a unified global culture, just about everything I've read has said that although technology has brought us closer and made our interactions more personal it has caused a more pluralistic world rather than a unified one. There is hybridization, and certainly similarities but great diversity as well, most scholars point out that this change has occurred in response to the decline of western power; for a long time there was on western voice dictating to the world, leading "lesser" cultures up a latter to enlightened culture but with the rise of eastern powers that latter has been destroyed and the west has had to learn to listen. Now there are many voices, and no one true ideal of "culture" meaning that if there is a global culture it is more an idea of acceptance of differences rather than a unified set...but really that's besides the point as I stated earlier very few people think globally when they think in terms of what is mainstream, I see nothing in the quotes MRP provided, or indeed nothing he has said that would make me think he was discussing anything outside of American culture. And again, a single issue may be confusing but if instead I handed him Court of Owls that confusion wouldn't exist, and court of owls sold pretty well to both the regular public and to those in the direct market so it's popular enough in the US, even if the single issues are not. And again, just because those single issues aren't popular with your average consumer that doesn't mean super hero comics in general are not popular. |
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Post by Cei-U! on Jan 6, 2016 17:23:31 GMT -5
I've been spending the morning looking at Golden Age circulation figures. DC was selling over 1,400,000 copies a month in 1940 of just four titles. Captain Marvel Adventures alone sold 1,360,000 a month in 1944 and that was before it went bi-weekly. The idea that superhero comics today, when a title selling 100,000 copies an issue is considered a huge hit, are "mainstream" makes me laugh.
Cei-U!
I summon the perspective!
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jan 6, 2016 17:55:44 GMT -5
I don't know if there is much scientific consensus that would back your assumption that there is a unified global culture, just about everything I've read has said that although technology has brought us closer and made our interactions more personal it has caused a more pluralistic world rather than a unified one. There is hybridization, and certainly similarities but great diversity as well, most scholars point out that this change has occurred in response to the decline of western power; for a long time there was on western voice dictating to the world, leading "lesser" cultures up a latter to enlightened culture but with the rise of eastern powers that latter has been destroyed and the west has had to learn to listen. Now there are many voices, and no one true ideal of "culture" meaning that if there is a global culture it is more an idea of acceptance of differences rather than a unified set...but really that's besides the point as I stated earlier very few people think globally when they think in terms of what is mainstream, I see nothing in the quotes MRP provided, or indeed nothing he has said that would make me think he was discussing anything outside of American culture. And again, a single issue may be confusing but if instead I handed him Court of Owls that confusion wouldn't exist, and court of owls sold pretty well to both the regular public and to those in the direct market so it's popular enough in the US, even if the single issues are not. And again, just because those single issues aren't popular with your average consumer that doesn't mean super hero comics in general are not popular. Now you are puting words in my mouth : I never said "unified" and even less "ideal", quite the oppposite in fact. If you're jumping to your conclusions based on custom-based arguments, it's dificult to debate. And if you didn't saw anything in MRP's posts hinting at discussing beyond american culture, pardon me if I did see the opportunity to expand the debate as I feel that it would offer more answers in doing so. About the single issue vs TPB of court of owls, I disagree : most critics observed that even if it was supposedly a rebooted #1, Batman shared a meta continuity wit its past and had us take for granted infermation that would normaly have been provided if this indeed was the begining of a story. Finally, it's just that your take of "sold pretty well" and mine differ massively I guess. As Kurt pointed out more bluntly, comic books is a beggers culture if you consider 100 000 units is a "selling pretty well" in a country withholding over 320 million people not counting the illegals, students and foreigners temporarly located in the USA for various reasons. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 6, 2016 18:08:51 GMT -5
I don't know if there is much scientific consensus that would back your assumption that there is a unified global culture, just about everything I've read has said that although technology has brought us closer and made our interactions more personal it has caused a more pluralistic world rather than a unified one. There is hybridization, and certainly similarities but great diversity as well, most scholars point out that this change has occurred in response to the decline of western power; for a long time there was on western voice dictating to the world, leading "lesser" cultures up a latter to enlightened culture but with the rise of eastern powers that latter has been destroyed and the west has had to learn to listen. Now there are many voices, and no one true ideal of "culture" meaning that if there is a global culture it is more an idea of acceptance of differences rather than a unified set...but really that's besides the point as I stated earlier very few people think globally when they think in terms of what is mainstream, I see nothing in the quotes MRP provided, or indeed nothing he has said that would make me think he was discussing anything outside of American culture. And again, a single issue may be confusing but if instead I handed him Court of Owls that confusion wouldn't exist, and court of owls sold pretty well to both the regular public and to those in the direct market so it's popular enough in the US, even if the single issues are not. And again, just because those single issues aren't popular with your average consumer that doesn't mean super hero comics in general are not popular. Now you are puting words in my mouth : I never said "unified" and even less "ideal", quite the oppposite in fact. If you're jumping to your conclusions based on custom-based arguments, it's dificult to debate. And if you didn't saw anything in MRP's posts hinting at discussing beyond american culture, pardon me if I did see the opportunity to expand the debate as I feel that it would offer more answers in doing so. About the single issue vs TPB of court of owls, I disagree : most critics observed that even if it was supposedly a rebooted #1, Batman shared a meta continuity wit its past and had us take for granted infermation that would normaly have been provided if this indeed was the begining of a story. Finally, it's just that your take of "sold pretty well" and mine differ massively I guess. As Kurt pointed out more bluntly, comic books is a beggers culture if you consider 100 000 units is a "selling pretty well" in a country withholding over 320 million people not counting the illegals, students and foreigners temporarly located in the USA for various reasons. The idea that there is a global mainstream means that it is largely unified, and ideal was mine meaning that the ideal of what a global culture that we are working towards is very much different than the one you proposed. And if we're going to move the goal posts and say that 100,000 comics isn't mainstream than we have to say that comics in general aren't mainstream as the best selling comic that Hibbs tracked ,Sisters, only sold 176,197 copies and it was in comparison to that kind of product on the NY Times best seller list, which goes against the premise of the entire conversation. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jan 6, 2016 18:31:35 GMT -5
The idea that there is a global mainstream CULTURE DOESN'T means that it is largely unified. But again, I didn't use the word unified and its implications, you put it in my mouth, and I never talked about any kind of ideal or not society. I just notice an accumulation of tropes that build a social structure that can be considered as a global culture, and each culture has its mainstream and its undergrounds, however the scale of both.
That is at least my conclusion after many life and professional experiences, and heavy reading of Adorno, Barthes and Ramonet.
I fully agree that with a few notable exceptions, in this supposedly modern age where most of the reading is done on a smart phone, comic books of any form sadly aren't mainstream, or is it sad?
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Post by Action Ace on Jan 6, 2016 18:34:58 GMT -5
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 6, 2016 18:51:10 GMT -5
The idea that there is a global mainstream CULTURE DOESN'T means that it is largely unified. But again, I didn't use the word unified and its implications, you put it in my mouth, and I never talked about any kind of ideal or not society. I just notice an accumulation of tropes that build a social structure that can be considered as a global culture, and each culture has its mainstream and its undergrounds, however the scale of both. That is at least my conclusion after many life and professional experiences, and heavy reading of Adorno, Barthes and Ramonet. I fully agree that with a few notable exceptions, in this supposedly modern age where most of the reading is done on a smart phone, comic books of any form sadly aren't mainstream, or is it sad? If there are a set of tropes that fit globally than it is unified, meaning there is one main stream and one underground which as has been my point all along does not seem to be realisic, but rather the world is pluralistic. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jan 6, 2016 19:35:06 GMT -5
Now you are paraphrasing, except you missed the "s" at undergrounds, which means it isn't a polarized concept as you imply. There is a level of global mainstream that is identifiable in global western culture, that is my opinion and the one of many others. This even leaves room for pluricity! If you have another opinion, you're perfectly entitled to it, but I still fail to see the use or purpose of refusing that relative concept. I never talked about absolutes but useful tools, the same you did with a self admited deeply flawed study. Yet you find that one perfectly fine to use... You disagree, fine, I understand, but I really feel you're nitpicking a little there |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 6, 2016 20:34:31 GMT -5
Now you are paraphrasing, except you missed the "s" at undergrounds, which means it isn't a polarized concept as you imply. There is a level of global mainstream that is identifiable in global western culture, that is my opinion and the one of many others. This even leaves room for pluricity! If you have another opinion, you're perfectly entitled to it, but I still fail to see the use or purpose of refusing that relative concept. I never talked about absolutes but useful tools, the same you did with a self admited deeply flawed study. Yet you find that one perfectly fine to use... You disagree, fine, I understand, but I really feel you're nitpicking a little there If there is more than one mainstream I'm not sure you can say there is a global mainstream, but heck even if you walk it back to western culture as you have here even that would seem overly large. While there are similarities that allow us to group many cultures together under a single umbrella when discussing broad generalities but with specific traits such a large group makes it unwieldy, and this is one of those topics. I mean, just look at the differences between how European and American comic companies are structured, the predominant genres and even the lengths of the comics themselves. With those differences can the two truly be compared? |
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Post by dupersuper on Jan 6, 2016 20:50:35 GMT -5
So, the question Marvel and DC need the answer to is HOW do you get all the people who go and what the movies to read the comics? Or perhaps (as I and I know MRP suspect) they don't care who reads the comics, as long as the properties are viable for other media. Incidently, I'd assume right now the most popular book without multimedia exposure is Ms. Marvel (though she may be on the Spiderman cartoon now).. no one else is close. I'd guess Daredevil a distant 2nd. On the DC side.. maybe Batgirl (if that counts) Daredevil had two blockbuster movies and a TV series that is currently debated on these boards But Ms Marvel and Batgirl maybe are the two top pure comic book superheroes. Any numbers on their sales in and outside of the direct market? And I'm in full agreement that DC and Marvel have realized that their main platforms for superheroes aren't comics anymore as I extensivly pondered on Did...did you just call Daredevil and Elektra blockbusters? |
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