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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jan 6, 2016 21:11:13 GMT -5
Did...did you just call Daredevil and Elektra blockbusters? Sadly so... I know they are just B movies, but they had blockbuster type of marketing and release, didn't they? That didn't prevent those to mostly tank, right? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2016 23:23:36 GMT -5
But that's dollars not units. Most cover prices went up form $2.99 to $3.99 and a lot of book s had $4.99 covers that didn't the previous year because of events and such, so just the cover price increase alone should account for the 7% increase in revenue, but the actual units moved-they never talk about that because it doesn't spin as well as the dollars. I still laugh when a year ago they were trumpeting that sales finally reached the level they were 15 years ago in dollars and talked about how that meant the industry was moving in the right direction again, except cover prices were twice as much so to get the same money as 15 years ago, you only had to sell half as many comics, but I guess selling half as much of something as you were 15 years ago is now a cause for celebration? -M |
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Post by Action Ace on Jan 7, 2016 0:08:06 GMT -5
But that's dollars not units. Most cover prices went up form $2.99 to $3.99 and a lot of book s had $4.99 covers that didn't the previous year because of events and such, so just the cover price increase alone should account for the 7% increase in revenue, but the actual units moved-they never talk about that because it doesn't spin as well as the dollars. I still laugh when a year ago they were trumpeting that sales finally reached the level they were 15 years ago in dollars and talked about how that meant the industry was moving in the right direction again, except cover prices were twice as much so to get the same money as 15 years ago, you only had to sell half as many comics, but I guess selling half as much of something as you were 15 years ago is now a cause for celebration? -M The units (# of floppies) sold are in the left hand column. In 2010 there were 73.8 million copies sold. It's climbed for five straight years to 2015 and an estimated 98 million copies sold. How much of that is orders to get variant covers would be my question. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2016 0:17:35 GMT -5
But that's dollars not units. Most cover prices went up form $2.99 to $3.99 and a lot of book s had $4.99 covers that didn't the previous year because of events and such, so just the cover price increase alone should account for the 7% increase in revenue, but the actual units moved-they never talk about that because it doesn't spin as well as the dollars. I still laugh when a year ago they were trumpeting that sales finally reached the level they were 15 years ago in dollars and talked about how that meant the industry was moving in the right direction again, except cover prices were twice as much so to get the same money as 15 years ago, you only had to sell half as many comics, but I guess selling half as much of something as you were 15 years ago is now a cause for celebration? -M The units (# of floppies) sold are in the left hand column. In 2010 there were 73.8 million copies sold. It's climbed for five straight years to 2015 and an estimated 98 million copies sold. How much of that is orders to get variant covers would be my question. If we go with Brian Hibbs, he posits that variants account for about 10% of all orders on issues that offer them, so look at 90% of sales being the normal cover, but that sales bumps to qualify for variants have to be taken on an issue by issue basis because the thresholds vary. Also, there are sales bumps because there are thresholds to achieve higher discounts from Diamond on certain issues as well (things like if your orders for All New All Different Cape and Mask #1 equal or exceed your orders for All New All Different Forbush Man #1-from 2 months ago-you receive an additional 10% off the price for that issue). The other thing on number of floppies-how many titles is DC publishing in 2015 vs. previous years, and how many weeklies (3 weekly series bumps up number of units moved even if each issue didn't sell very well) or Marvel series and minis etc. If I have to publish 50 series to move as many units as I did when I only published 30, well that's not something to celebrate either because my cost s to produce 50 are higher than to produce 30, so my profits are much less and my overall readership is likely down as that hardcore audience that bought all 30 previously is likely going to buy all 50, but I's atill moving less units per issue than I was before. -M |
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Post by tingramretro on Jan 7, 2016 3:18:36 GMT -5
We don't have the same activities though, US Football, Baseball and even Basketball are all part of popculture here and the interest else where is nearly non-existant, meanwhile sports like Soccer, Rugby and Cricket are huge in the UK, Australia and else where but are nearly unknown here. And while there are some musical artists with a global reach like U2, Sam Smith and the likes of Taylor Swift, Rihanna and Beyonce the majority of each countries top artists is different. And popular TV that people talk about around the water cooler at work? Outside of maybe something like the Game of Thrones there is very little crossover to speak of. And style of dress is different as well, for instance sneakers are probably the most common shoe for both men and women in the US but in mainland Europe unless I was in the gym I hardly ever saw a woman in sneakers and even in men it was uncommon to see them in sneakers and further there were two different bars that I tried to get into in Paris that wouldn't even let me in because I was wearing sneakers. Cargo shorts and over sized sweat shirts are also popular style here and again are seldom seen else where and probably one the most popular style items for men in the US is the Baseball cap which is also rare in other parts of the world. Movies tend to be the rule breaker however as what is popular in the states on film tend to be popular elsewhere too but one thing does not make a global mainstream of pop culture. As for comics, yes the US market is still the focus for Marvel and DC. Other than Batman: Europa I don't think there is currently a single comic being put out by the big two set out side of the US and there are no real big name heroes that are from outside the US outside of Wolverine. Their plots largely mirror US culture, when they make political references they are focused on US current events, and if they reference pop culture it's US based as well...and I don't see how that would mean there wouldn't be Vertigo as there are other tastes these publishers cater to as well, they just don't put the focus on them to the extent that they do on super heroes. And the review Hibbs gave isn't deeply flawed, it isn't an absolute snap shot of sales outside of the direct market as not every store uses book scan but many of the larger distributors like Barnes and Noble do so with that sample size one could reliably assume the US market as a whole isn't that different. And DC's highest dollar book was a mask/comic combo set, not it's best seller there's a difference there and they were not far away from the top seller's list as their highest hit was #27 which can hardly be said to be far from the top of the heap. Sports : all team sports developped by WASPs and televised, everyone aware of all of them, same companies advertise through all of those. Flavor of the day biggest mainstream singers are present in all western top billboards Macdonalds and Pizza hut are everywhere Nike and Addidas are everywhere, andeven if some very unmainstream spots in Paris don't alow sneakers, same goes with some places in NYC... Game of Thrones and The Office are everywhere (they make local versions of so many successfull TV shows now, like The Bridge, The Killing, Homeland or even Breaking Bad) Same companies own almost all of western medias. Brand loyalty is global, as are those brands, therefore the expression of a mainstream culture in our media society. English language is also a pivotal part of that mainstream culture. I don't percieve mainstream as pejorative, so I really don't see where you're going with all hte cultural exceptions/specificities Bottom line, the same type of food clothe and hobbies are available and mainstream in all of the mainstream world. About DC and Marvel focus being solely on the US market supposedly because they only publish one comic where the action is set there, I don't know what to answer you if you really feel that way. Of course I'm not talking about editorial geographical numbers, hahaha! I'm just saying that as with movies, DC and Marvel are fully aware thatinternational sales are as important as US ones, if not more. Many european comics have american characters and stories set there, yet they are mostly marketed towards the local market. I really fail to see the logic of your argument. And about the report being deeply flawed, when it's author self accounts that amongst other faults, the amount of reached bookstores might just be 50% lower than their believed 85% reach of bookstore chains, excluding any indie store or online bookclub/independant dealer or libraries, well yes I assume those numbers are just a deeply flawed statistical tool, an interesting one nevertheless  Actually, guardian's right-most American sports are not really known outside America. The only football you'll find televised over here, generally, is actual football, not the American version, and I've never seen baseball or basketball. While the English language is common everywhere, English and American English are not quite the same language, either. There are more differences in these countries' language and culture than many people seem to realise. |
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Post by tingramretro on Jan 7, 2016 3:23:43 GMT -5
The differences in the sports are vast though, as are the cultures built around those sports; how you express you support, how you dress when attending the games and the jargon itself. And as I said while there are cross over musical talents many more of the popular songs vary by region, especially in the east which by population percentage would equate to more of the global mainstream if such a thing existed. And while DC and Marvel may care how the world feels about their movies as the global population is important in terms of ticket sales, the same is not true of the comics. There doesn't seem to be a concern for instance over whether the villains can be Asian for instance in the comics as there is no care over how that comic will sell in China, where as the opposite is true in terms of film where appealing to the Asian market often dictates elements of the film. And even at 50% lower it is still an accurate enough sample size to make assumptions based on the whole market, not deeply flawed. A sample size of only 10% is often large enough to accurately portray trends, so 50% would make it overkill. Frst of all, I hope it's a given that I find this discussion interesting and appreciate White Guardian's views and input, and am not in any way trying to antagonize him/you  About the sports music fashion food etc, sorry but even if there obviously have very unique specifics, the reasons and means why/how people follow those are the same, the thinking is the same : you support your local team, your homeland or maybe the team you think is the best if you're a specialist of that sport. All those exist through the same pattern of comsumption : our buying of the products advertized around the fields or during the commercial breaks. Everyone in the world more or less play the same videogames, and depending on how urban and old your are or not, you'll more than often see the same type of food and fashion habits in SF or Amsterdam. Sure the sausages will be different, but you'll still pay around the same amount of money for food, and if you're in a hurry, in town, not a snob and not super health concious, you might very well end up pasing through McDonald, both in SF or Amsterdam... Look, this is an american forum, quite an open minded one... Really? That's unsettling. I thought it was just a comics forum. Now I'm wondering what I'm doing here...  |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Jan 7, 2016 3:27:25 GMT -5
Agreed with mrp's statements about the rising cost to produce floppies vs. past years. But that is probably offset by the rising number of digital sales at a much less cost basis. Rising tradebook sales are also at a lower cost since they are reprints. There are alot of different vectors to factor but when you crunch them all together, my instincts tell me for the overall industry, profits are up.
Even so, the patient remains in a precarious state and there is nothing to puff the chest out yet, so to speak
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 7, 2016 11:17:25 GMT -5
Agreed with mrp's statements about the rising cost to produce floppies vs. past years. But that is probably offset by the rising number of digital sales at a much less cost basis. Rising tradebook sales are also at a lower cost since they are reprints. There are alot of different vectors to factor but when you crunch them all together, my instincts tell me for the overall industry, profits are up. Even so, the patient remains in a precarious state and there is nothing to puff the chest out yet, so to speak Yeah, it's not exactly, "Happy days are here again!" but it's good news none the less although perhaps not for your traditional vendors as the book store market seems to be growing faster than the direct market, and if that continues we may see a shift in focus. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2016 21:27:42 GMT -5
Well super-heroes have become mainstream enough for ESPN to use them (the Justice League in particular) to analyze the NFL and Cam Newton's season...  link in case video upload isn't working ESPN clipsWhat I find ironic is that they used DC characters when ESPN is under the Disney umbrella, though I understand it is because Cam Newton has a signature Superman inspired celebration. -M |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2016 13:58:36 GMT -5
Heading back to the original post, I agree completely that "mainstream" comics are so far removed from "mainstream" anything else that they're actually a niche. For the exact reasons listed, as well as many others. The properties have true mainstream appeal, everyone loves Batman and the Avengers. But the comics are actually almost anti-mainstream with how difficult they make getting into them for a new casual reader. The unnecessary complexities of super hero comics are something only super hero fans who have been fans since before the complexities have gotten to this point can tolerate. And every year they seem to go further and further down the hole that guarantees the millions of people who will watch the new Batman movie, buy the DKR and Killing Joke trades and love them, will be absolutely unable to enjoy the monthly Batman comic.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 15, 2016 22:45:53 GMT -5
Heading back to the original post, I agree completely that "mainstream" comics are so far removed from "mainstream" anything else that they're actually a niche. For the exact reasons listed, as well as many others. The properties have true mainstream appeal, everyone loves Batman and the Avengers. But the comics are actually almost anti-mainstream with how difficult they make getting into them for a new casual reader. The unnecessary complexities of super hero comics are something only super hero fans who have been fans since before the complexities have gotten to this point can tolerate. And every year they seem to go further and further down the hole that guarantees the millions of people who will watch the new Batman movie, buy the DKR and Killing Joke trades and love them, will be absolutely unable to enjoy the monthly Batman comic. The trades that collect these unnecessarily complex issues sell pretty well in book stores though so it doesn't seem that the stories themselves are difficult to get into. |
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on Jan 16, 2016 20:51:14 GMT -5
Easy, comics (singles) are for kids, but I can justify a trade as being a "book", which of course is still not "cool", but they aint just for kids.
Now if they needed a controller to turn the pages, and headphones to listen to the sound effects, we'd be good to go.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2016 0:02:28 GMT -5
Heading back to the original post, I agree completely that "mainstream" comics are so far removed from "mainstream" anything else that they're actually a niche. For the exact reasons listed, as well as many others. The properties have true mainstream appeal, everyone loves Batman and the Avengers. But the comics are actually almost anti-mainstream with how difficult they make getting into them for a new casual reader. The unnecessary complexities of super hero comics are something only super hero fans who have been fans since before the complexities have gotten to this point can tolerate. And every year they seem to go further and further down the hole that guarantees the millions of people who will watch the new Batman movie, buy the DKR and Killing Joke trades and love them, will be absolutely unable to enjoy the monthly Batman comic. The trades that collect these unnecessarily complex issues sell pretty well in book stores though so it doesn't seem that the stories themselves are difficult to get into. They hardly ever crack the NYT bestsellers list. The very few that do tend to have movie tie ins, and stay on the list for a week or two. The list is otherwise populated by graphic novels that barely made a blip in the direct market but manage to remain a NYT bestseller for like 30 consecutive weeks without a movie or tv show or popular license. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 17, 2016 11:01:45 GMT -5
The trades that collect these unnecessarily complex issues sell pretty well in book stores though so it doesn't seem that the stories themselves are difficult to get into. They hardly ever crack the NYT bestsellers list. The very few that do tend to have movie tie ins, and stay on the list for a week or two. The list is otherwise populated by graphic novels that barely made a blip in the direct market but manage to remain a NYT bestseller for like 30 consecutive weeks without a movie or tv show or popular license. Do they sell that well year after year though? Other than things like the Dork Diaries I don't see many repeats on Brian Hibbs list that aren't big in the direct market, while on the other side of the coin something like the Court of Owls has continued to put up strong numbers since its release in 2012 despite only a short stint on the NYT bestsellers list. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2016 18:54:10 GMT -5
They hardly ever crack the NYT bestsellers list. The very few that do tend to have movie tie ins, and stay on the list for a week or two. The list is otherwise populated by graphic novels that barely made a blip in the direct market but manage to remain a NYT bestseller for like 30 consecutive weeks without a movie or tv show or popular license. Do they sell that well year after year though? Other than things like the Dork Diaries I don't see many repeats on Brian Hibbs list that aren't big in the direct market, while on the other side of the coin something like the Court of Owls has continued to put up strong numbers since its release in 2012 despite only a short stint on the NYT bestsellers list. I think the NYT list is compiled weekly, I'd imagine they have to continue to sell well to remain on the list. Current list doesn't have a single super hero comic on it. There are two licensed comics with movie tie ins at the bottom of the list. Star Wars. At the bottom of the list. With a billion dollar movie tie in. Otherwise it's all creator owned stuff, with 3 of them having been on the list consecutively for over a year. Star Wars barely cracked the top ten for three weeks and looks to be on it's way out. Raina Telgemeier is sweeping the top ten list through her output at Scholastix, which I don't even think has direct market distribution at all. Her numbers are in large part thanks to libraries and school book fairs, but the fact that they are kid friendly cannot be discounted either. Back when Spiderman and Batman were kid friendly and the same demographic who is now buying Smile and Sisters would have been buying Detective and ASM, those comics were selling six figures monthly without relying on renumbering, gimmick deaths, events, or variant covers. Amazon has one super hero comic in it's top 20 bestsellers. Killing Joke. 30 years old. But it does have a Stan Lee graphic memoir at #1. Which I think just further illustrates that there WOULD be huge demand for super hero comics, if they weren't what they are. |
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