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Post by tarkintino on Apr 23, 2021 17:46:02 GMT -5
Same with Green Lantern. Sinestro always seemed like the 38th century equivalent of Snidely Whiplash.
Now that is a great point--Batman's early rogue's gallery was one of the few to be so strong that they became defining as comic villains for decades to come.
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Post by kirby101 on Apr 23, 2021 19:06:01 GMT -5
I have always felt that Fantastic Four 40-70 was the single greatest creative run in comics history, In the span of less than 3 years Jack and Stan (OK, mostly Jack) created The Inhumans, Silver Surfer and Galactus, the Negative Zone (in what might be the best single issue ever), the Black Panther, the Klaw and Wakanda, The Kree, Sentry and Ronan, Blastarr and Him, who would become Warlock. Hard to beat that, and we can include Ego and the High Evolutionary over in Thor at the same time. That is a hard run to beat. I also think no one has passed Dikto in creating a rouges gallery in such a short time as he did for Spider-Man. (Convential wisdom is Stan had little to do with the stories before he scripted the finished pages) Right out of the chute he created the Vulture, Doc Ock, Sandman, the Lizard, the Spider Slayer, The Green Goblen, Mysterio, Kraven the Hunter and the Scorpian. Not only do I think no other hero has a rouges gallery that can beat that, but that it happend in his first issues is remarkable. Regarding the Fantastic Four, I would add several issues before and after, as Lee and Kirby's work was that strong. Its the title's best period by far. One--by the way--that no film studio has ever come close to matching as a live action movie...in fact, they were all terrible.
As for The Amazing Spider-Man, creating the rogues' gallery is one thing (and that's nothing to sneeze at), but for most, their greatest stories would not come until after Ditko's departure; the majority of Spider-Man's greatest, most icon-defining stories were in the Romita/Lee era, and that includes the beginning of the true Green Goblin / Osborn saga (which also includes part one of a Kraven appearance starting in #47), ASM #44-45 (the Lizard), one of the greatest of a number of unforgettable Doctor Octopus dramas in #54-56, etc. That was the point Spider-Man overtook the Fantastic Four as Marvel's best-selling title, and as powerful as the F.F. was at that time, there's no question why Spider-Man rocketed into the heights of superhero fiction.
I agree. But I was specifically talking about creation rather than comic stories. FF remained strong through the 80s and as good as the Romita/Lee period was, only the Kingpin measures up to what Ditko created.
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Post by Prince Hal on Apr 23, 2021 20:50:03 GMT -5
Regarding the Fantastic Four, I would add several issues before and after, as Lee and Kirby's work was that strong. Its the title's best period by far. One--by the way--that no film studio has ever come close to matching as a live action movie...in fact, they were all terrible.
As for The Amazing Spider-Man, creating the rogues' gallery is one thing (and that's nothing to sneeze at), but for most, their greatest stories would not come until after Ditko's departure; the majority of Spider-Man's greatest, most icon-defining stories were in the Romita/Lee era, and that includes the beginning of the true Green Goblin / Osborn saga (which also includes part one of a Kraven appearance starting in #47), ASM #44-45 (the Lizard), one of the greatest of a number of unforgettable Doctor Octopus dramas in #54-56, etc. That was the point Spider-Man overtook the Fantastic Four as Marvel's best-selling title, and as powerful as the F.F. was at that time, there's no question why Spider-Man rocketed into the heights of superhero fiction.
I agree. But I was specifically talking about creation rather than comic stories. FF remained strong through the 80s and as good as the Romita/Lee period was, only the Kingpin measures up to what Ditko created. You meant to say only the Kingpin AND the Kangaroo, I’m sure.
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Post by kirby101 on Apr 23, 2021 21:12:01 GMT -5
And the Gibbon.
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Post by brutalis on Apr 23, 2021 21:14:40 GMT -5
I agree. But I was specifically talking about creation rather than comic stories. FF remained strong through the 80s and as good as the Romita/Lee period was, only the Kingpin measures up to what Ditko created. You meant to say only the Kingpin AND the Kangaroo, I’m sure. Let us not forget the Gibbon!
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Post by Prince Hal on Apr 24, 2021 7:31:20 GMT -5
You meant to say only the Kingpin AND the Kangaroo, I’m sure. Let us not forget the Gibbon! You mean, as the cover proclaimed him,"the newest Marvel super-star"? Who could forget such a one, unless it is because he was outshone by... the Grizzly!
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Post by kirby101 on Apr 24, 2021 8:31:56 GMT -5
Here are the villains introduced in Spider-Man 100-150. A mixed bag indeed.
Morbius The Gibbon Hammerhead The Kangaroo Some guy with a skull on his chest Tarantula The Mindworm The Grizzly The Cyclone The Jackal
Makes Ditko's record all that more impressive.
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Post by tarkintino on Apr 24, 2021 9:31:11 GMT -5
Regarding the Fantastic Four, I would add several issues before and after, as Lee and Kirby's work was that strong. Its the title's best period by far. One--by the way--that no film studio has ever come close to matching as a live action movie...in fact, they were all terrible.
As for The Amazing Spider-Man, creating the rogues' gallery is one thing (and that's nothing to sneeze at), but for most, their greatest stories would not come until after Ditko's departure; the majority of Spider-Man's greatest, most icon-defining stories were in the Romita/Lee era, and that includes the beginning of the true Green Goblin / Osborn saga (which also includes part one of a Kraven appearance starting in #47), ASM #44-45 (the Lizard), one of the greatest of a number of unforgettable Doctor Octopus dramas in #54-56, etc. That was the point Spider-Man overtook the Fantastic Four as Marvel's best-selling title, and as powerful as the F.F. was at that time, there's no question why Spider-Man rocketed into the heights of superhero fiction.
I agree. But I was specifically talking about creation rather than comic stories. FF remained strong through the 80s and as good as the Romita/Lee period was, only the Kingpin measures up to what Ditko created. Personally, I've never believed the Vulture or Scorpion were great creations; both--no matter who was writing them--was ever able to make them one of those villains you always wanted to make a return.
I'll take Kingpin, Silvermane, Shocker and the Rhino (who was so great he quickly became a Hulk villain) over many of those early characters.
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Post by tarkintino on Apr 24, 2021 9:40:12 GMT -5
Here are the villains introduced in Spider-Man 100-150. A mixed bag indeed. Morbius The Gibbon Hammerhead The Kangaroo Some guy with a skull on his chest Tarantula The Mindworm The Grizzly The Cyclone The Jackal Makes Ditko's record all that more impressive. That guy with skull on his chest was--of course--the Punisher, which was one of the breakout / landmark villain creations/introductions in the title's history. The Jackal was perfectly psychotic (considering why Warren took on that role), and Morbius--like DC's Man-Bat--was part of that wave of early 70s sympathetic horror characters who were far more interesting than people committing crimes just because...bad? All were better developed and nuanced than so many of Ditko's creations.
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Post by Prince Hal on Apr 24, 2021 10:00:24 GMT -5
Here are the villains introduced in Spider-Man 100-150. A mixed bag indeed. Morbius The Gibbon Hammerhead The Kangaroo Some guy with a skull on his chest Tarantula The Mindworm The Grizzly The Cyclone The Jackal Makes Ditko's record all that more impressive. That guy with skull on his chest was--of course--the Punisher, which was one of the breakout / landmark villain creations/introductions in the title's history. The Jackal was perfectly psychotic (considering why Warren took on that role), and Morbius--like DC's Man-Bat--was part of that wave of early 70s sympathetic horror characters who were far more interesting than people committing crimes just because...bad? All were better developed and nuanced than so many of Ditko's creations. I'm not as knowledgeable about the ins and outs of some of those early Spidey villains as you and kirby101 are, tark, as I was more of a Batman fan then, but visually, those Ditko villains were almost all impressive... and I'd include the curiously frail but creepy Vulture among them. Even as a casual (and truth be told, late to the party Marvel reader), the covers, like the ones below featuring the Molten Man, the Spider-Slayer, and the Scorpion were particularly stunning, and let's face it, the visuals do count for a lot. (These villains certainly outdo the likes of the Kangaroo, et, al.).
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 24, 2021 12:47:16 GMT -5
Here are the villains introduced in Spider-Man 100-150. A mixed bag indeed. Morbius The Gibbon Hammerhead The Kangaroo Some guy with a skull on his chest Tarantula The Mindworm The Grizzly The Cyclone The Jackal Makes Ditko's record all that more impressive. You forgot the black guy on roller skates. Hypno Hustler?
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Post by kirby101 on Apr 24, 2021 13:00:00 GMT -5
You forgot the black guy on roller skates. Hypno Hustler? Rocket Racer, but he was after #150.
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Post by Farrar on Apr 24, 2021 13:09:57 GMT -5
... And love him or hate him, another mastermind was Mort Weisinger, who was the impetus behind many key chapters of the Superman mythos: Supergirl, Superboy, the Legion, Krypton, the Phantom Zone, and much more. Weisinger did indeed expand the Superman mythos (with his writers), but Superboy wasn't one of his. Siegel had proposed a series focusing on Superman's teen years, though non-costumed (much like the later TV show Smallville). Liebowitz and Donenfeld rejected it but when Siegel in the army, what happened? That's right, all of a sudden there's a Superboy (costumed) in More Fun Comics, which was under the editorship of Whitney Ellsworth & Jack Schiff (really Schiff). Superboy proved to be very popular and moved into the Schiff-edited Adventure Comics as well as getting his own comic in 1949, also then edited by Schiff.
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Post by Prince Hal on Apr 24, 2021 16:22:42 GMT -5
... And love him or hate him, another mastermind was Mort Weisinger, who was the impetus behind many key chapters of the Superman mythos: Supergirl, Superboy, the Legion, Krypton, the Phantom Zone, and much more. Weisinger did indeed expand the Superman mythos (with his writers), but Superboy wasn't one of his. Siegel had proposed a series focusing on Superman's teen years, though non-costumed (much like the later TV show Smallville). Liebowitz and Donenfeld rejected it but when Siegel in the army, what happened? That's right, all of a sudden there's a Superboy (costumed) in More Fun Comics, which was under the editorship of Whitney Ellsworth & Jack Schiff (really Schiff). Superboy proved to be very popular and moved into the Schiff-edited Adventure Comics as well as getting his own comic in 1949, also then edited by Schiff. Yes, I should have been more specific. (Posted in a rush.) I meant that he expanded the cast of Superboy characters, adding Pete Ross and Chief Parker, Kryptonians and Legionnaires popping up all the time in Smallville, all those super-powerful youths he kept running into, etc.
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Post by tarkintino on Apr 24, 2021 19:49:01 GMT -5
Even as a casual (and truth be told, late to the party Marvel reader), the covers, like the ones below featuring the Molten Man, the Spider-Slayer, and the Scorpion were particularly stunning, and let's face it, the visuals do count for a lot. (These villains certainly outdo the likes of the Kangaroo, et, al.). Oh, those are great covers (#28 in particular). If visuals count for a lot, then the sales job for the post-Ditko characters below was unmatched:
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