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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2020 13:25:04 GMT -5
I would recommend anyone trying to get into the Lord of the Rings to start with the Two Towers I'm sorry, what? Surely this is an honest mistake and you meant Fellowship of the Ring? Nope, it's a missed word. I meant to say not start with the Two Towers, going back to edit now. -M
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Sept 16, 2020 13:26:58 GMT -5
I do feel - and I don’t know if Slam and mrp would agree with this - that the Star Wars and Darth Vader books should be attempting a chronological numbering, without rebooting, because, if I have it right, they are set within a certain timeline (Original Trilogy, is it?) and are no doubt telling a story that will culminate during and/or just prior to the timeline of one of George Lucas’ original films. So, to stick with mrp’s comparison, Marvel Comics’ Star Wars titles would be more akin to Friends than Looney Tunes. As they are telling a sequential story, which is set within the timeline of the original films (correct me if I have made a mistake on that), I do feel it’d be helpful if something like the Darth Vader book stuck to the sequential numbering of its issues/volumes. However, despite my thought on that, it’s pretty much a case of closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. I mean, hasn’t Darth Vader been renumbered at least twice since about 2015? I can't speak to Star Wars because I'm at best a very marginal fan (I like two of the movies (but am kind of tired of them), can tolerate maybe two more and think the rest mostly stink). I've only ever read a handful of Star Wars comics and no prose books. So I dunno. I will add that, I frequent a comic book message board and I have zero idea what the difference is between "New 52" and "Rebirth." So my gut tells me that someone just trying to find a Batman trade or a JLA trade is not going to have any more idea about that than I do.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2020 13:28:09 GMT -5
@taxidriver1980
As for the Marvel Star Wars stuff, assume it's like the EU stuff that was done for years. You can pick and choose what you want to read, and as long as you are starting each series at the beginning you're okay and don't need to have read all the other EU stuff to enjoy it. But I could be wrong. I read a bunch of the initial new Marvel stuff via the library as it got trades in, but haven't kept up as other things on my TBR lists have had higher priorities.
-M
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Post by Batflunkie on Sept 16, 2020 13:33:53 GMT -5
I will add that, I frequent a comic book message board and I have zero idea what the difference is between "New 52" and "Rebirth." So my gut tells me that someone just trying to find a Batman trade or a JLA trade is not going to have any more idea about that than I do. New 52 was an attempt to modernize and redefine the DC Universe. Rebirth was basically a clean-up crew trying to salvage the mess that was New 52 and DC You and was also an attempt to re-incorporate Post-Crisis elements to the brand
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2020 13:53:31 GMT -5
Ok let's look at the spell of the #1 on comic collectors in a case study...
Blazing Combat from Warren, 4 issues published in 1965 and 1966.
In the current market #1 goes for about 5 times what 2-4 go for. I have managed to pick up issues 2-4 on the relative cheap in grades ranging from a 2.5-5.0 for $2.50, $5 and $10. High grade copies command in the $40-$50 for 2-4.
I haven't seen #1 sell in any grade for less than $150 for a while and in high grade can approach $300 raw. Slabbed is out of sight for prices.
So let's loo at why prices are the way they are in the back issue market-
Scarcity-well #1 issues have higher print runs than later issues typically, so scarcity i not a factor in the higher price
Covers-#1 has a Frazettta cover so that must be it right? Well so do #2-4, so no difference there.
1st appearances-none of the issues have significant first appearances of recurring characters, so nothing there to differentiate the value of #1 from the others.
Content: Most of the stories in all the issues is written or co-written by Archie Goodwin, and all of the first issue is written by Goodwin. There are a few exceptions in 2-4, but nothing on the writer end to differentiate between issues. So let's look at interior artists
#1 has stories by: John Severin Joe Orlando Angelo Torres George Evans Gray Morrow Reed Crandall Alex Toth Tex Blaisdell
quite the star studded line-up, so maybe that's it. Except heres the artist line ups for the other issues
#2 Gray Morrow John Severin Joe Orlando Reed Crandall Al McWilliams Angelo Torres Alex Toth
#3 Angelo Torres JohnSeverin Frank Frazetta Jerry Grandenetti Joe Orlando Reed Crandall Gene Colan Alex Toth Wally Wood Gray Morrow
#4 Dan Adkins John Severin Gene Colan George Evans Alex Toth Russ Heath Wally Wood Reed Crandall Angelo Torres Frank Frazetta
so really nothing to separate the issues in terms of quality. It's the same stable of artists with minor variations on all 4 issues.
So the only thing that makes #1 worth 5 times more than the other issues in the current marketplace is that it has a #1 on the cover and the others don't. And that makes most comic fans willing to shell out five times as much money to own the issue in today's market than they will for the other three issues. That is the power a #1 has on the comic collector customer fanbase, and this is why publsihers can get regular sales bumps by putting out a new #1 issue.
There I said it!
(and we can do many more case studies of #1s holding disproportionate value to issues around it despite every other facotr determining value being equal except the #1 on the cover).
(and I'd like to acknowledge a lot of this comes form a conversation I had with the owner of Bookery Fantasy a couple of weeks back who pointed out the absurdity of Blazing Combat #1 going for so much more than the rest when all the factors were taken into consideration when I was talking about grail books I would likely never own inspiring me to do a comparison between the books).
-M
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2020 13:54:08 GMT -5
@taxidriver1980 As for the Marvel Star Wars stuff, assume it's like the EU stuff that was done for years. You can pick and choose what you want to read, and as long as you are starting each series at the beginning you're okay and don't need to have read all the other EU stuff to enjoy it. But I could be wrong. I read a bunch of the initial new Marvel stuff via the library as it got trades in, but haven't kept up as other things on my TBR lists have had higher priorities. -M It pretty much is, but there's been some crossover with Vader, Star Wars and Aphra.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2020 14:14:53 GMT -5
They can be broken down into 3 eras and I can see why they chose to relaunch each time.
The first Vader series by Kieron Gillen went hand in hand with the ongoing Star Wars series as they followed the characters post-A New Hope as Vader tries to learn who destroyed the Death Star and what his connection to that pilot may be. We see some of the same scenes from different perspectives and about a year into the run we get the full "Vader Down" crossover. It ended after 25 issues when Gillen transitioned to the Doctor Aphra ongoing.
The second series "Dark Lord of the Sith" by Charles Soule was set immediately following Revenge of the Sith and is all about the final transition from Anakin to Vader. It doesn't really tie in to any of the other series.
The third series by Greg Pak is set in the aftermath of The Empire Strikes back and seeks to explore the time following the emotional climax of that film and its toll on Vader. So far it there has been little crossover other than the post-ESB era that all the new #1's are set in.
The Star Wars cannon is still a lot of puzzle pieces from various times that are slowly putting pieces together.
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Post by beccabear67 on Sept 16, 2020 14:18:39 GMT -5
Obviously, these gimmicks are working. But I don’t think they are sustainable. I think we should pretty much know they aren't (sustainable). The only reason an #1 used to be any kind of valuable in-demand item was because it really was shown to have meant something over time... Action Comics #1, Fantastic Four #1. Now it usually couldn't be more meaningless, and it's only the memory of when it had some meaning that keeps people buying extra copies for some imagined future demand. The multiple covers shtick is more bad-taste for anyone manipulated by it into buying the same comic multiple times... numbers of copies no longer meaning actual readers like it used to between those and the caselot investment schemes, another meaning long gone but which the memory of has lingered. The memory/meaning will eventually fade out = not sustainable.
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Post by sunofdarkchild on Sept 16, 2020 14:19:44 GMT -5
There have been 3 Darth Vader books published by Marvel in recent years.
The first told one complete story bridging A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back. It then ended in October 2016.
The second Darth Vader series was launched in June 2017 and covered the period immediately after Revenge of the Sith. It ended in December 2018.
The third series launched this past February and is bridging the gap between Empire and Return of the Jedi.
Each of the series deals with a different time period, has a completely different creative team, and there were long breaks between the series. It seems a bit different to me then relaunching Uncanny X-Men or Amazing Spider-Man with a new #1 the next month after the previous issue.
Edit: chintzybeatnik beat me to it.
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Post by tartanphantom on Sept 16, 2020 14:26:00 GMT -5
Obviously, these gimmicks are working. But I don’t think they are sustainable. I think we should pretty much know they aren't. The only reason an #1 used to be any kind of valuable in-demand item was because it really was shown to have meant something over time... Action Comics #1, Fantastic Four #1. Now it usually couldn't be more meaningless, and it's only the memory of when it had some meaning that keeps people buying extra copies for some imagined future demand. The multiple covers shtick is more bad-taste for anyone manipulated by it into buying the same comic multiple times... numbers of copies no longer meaning actual readers like it used to between those and the caselot investment schemes, another meaning long gone buy which the memory of has lingered.
Well said, M'lady.
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Post by beccabear67 on Sept 16, 2020 14:30:43 GMT -5
In Japan comics have a number on the cover and each year starts with #1. A weekly will have 52 issues in a year marked #1-52, a monthly #1-12, but a bi-monthly could be #1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, 11. Then usually on the bottom of the last page in fine print you can see it's actually issue #12,546, #1,834 or #120 of the title. Generally to the call months by numbers anyway, January is literally month one, and December is month twelve. When they collect an individual feature up into volumes those will have volume numbers like we (America/Europe) put on our comics. I've not really seem much focus on #1s in Europe with weeklies/monthlies though there have been some, the collector market being less of the market perhaps, and did anyone want a new #1 for Donald Duck Weekblad, Spirou or The Beano anyway? Shonen Jump Weekly #14 would mean a week in March issue... Shonen Jump Monthly #7 would mean the July issue... Comic Nora back when I got it was six a year, so an #3 meant March, and there was no #2... Confused yet? I had to edit to fix some errors.
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Post by beccabear67 on Sept 16, 2020 14:32:58 GMT -5
I think we should pretty much know they aren't.
Well said, M'lady.
Thanks! And now I see where I might've made it clear that I mean they aren't sustainable, not that they don't work or sell at all... so easy to miscommunicate. Sorry.
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Post by brutalis on Sept 16, 2020 15:47:27 GMT -5
Dagnabbit beccabear! You got me with this post. As a treat for myself back in the early 2000's (don't remember actual dates) I subscribed to the then NEW English version of Shonen Jump. It was a special gift to myself as an adult since I adore Manga and I never was able to subscribe to comics in my youth. I read the SJ as they came in the mail and then boxed them all in order. I subscribed to the entire run until they switched over to a weekly digital format. They are in my spare bedroom closet buried safely away to be dug out and enjoyed again once I retire and relive the weekly joy. Was quite a fun and entertaining collection of serialized stories. I remember sitting each weekend poring over each new issue for hours. I can say that even the lesser (IMO) series were still gorgeously illustrated and interesting.
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Post by beccabear67 on Sept 16, 2020 19:03:03 GMT -5
As a treat for myself back in the early 2000's (don't remember actual dates) I subscribed to the then NEW English version of Shonen Jump. It was a special gift to myself as an adult since I adore Manga and I never was able to subscribe to comics in my youth. I read the SJ as they came in the mail and then boxed them all in order. I subscribed to the entire run until they switched over to a weekly digital format. They are in my spare bedroom closet buried safely away to be dug out and enjoyed again once I retire and relive the weekly joy. Was quite a fun and entertaining collection of serialized stories. I remember sitting each weekend poring over each new issue for hours. I can say that even the lesser (IMO) series were still gorgeously illustrated and interesting. If they were as thick as the Japanese ones you could bundle a single year's worth and have a spare futon for guests! I had subscriptions through a Vancouver importer to a couple animation magazines, and various comics (Shonen Sunday, Shonen Jump, Young Jump, Young Magazine, Nora, and even gave Margaret and Ribbon a try). I could (barely) read them as long as there was the little katakana/hiragana next to the kanji circa 1986-1991. Also I could order things in advance like a Dirty Pair calendar or a quarterly super-special comic if they were advertised at all. I had to get rid of most of this stuff just because of the space it occupied. I can't imagine there are a lot of people collecting regular issues of comic titles in Japan as they are like thick big city telephone books! I'm sure 98% get recycled within a month.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Sept 16, 2020 20:51:38 GMT -5
@taxidriver1980 As for the Marvel Star Wars stuff, assume it's like the EU stuff that was done for years. You can pick and choose what you want to read, and as long as you are starting each series at the beginning you're okay and don't need to have read all the other EU stuff to enjoy it. But I could be wrong. I read a bunch of the initial new Marvel stuff via the library as it got trades in, but haven't kept up as other things on my TBR lists have had higher priorities. -M That's definitely true. I So far, the Star Wars books seems to have logic to their volumes... The first new Marvel Star Wars volume was set between New Hope and ESB... the somewhat recently restarted a new #1 to be between ESB and RoTJ. I THINK the Darth Vader book has 3 volumes... there's a middle one that IIRC is set just before ANH. Doctor Aphra similarly has 2 volumes, I think it's the same deal. I see someone else already posted.. sorry! As far as Crossovers go, there have been two main ones... 'Vader Down' and 'The Scarlet Citadel' Both had a special one shot with them. Other than those, I don't think they mix too much.... Doctor Aphra and Vader 1st series had some overlap, but I don't think you need one to read the other.
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