shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,822
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Post by shaxper on Oct 17, 2014 20:00:12 GMT -5
First off, because I'm about to take the other side as well, I want to be clear that I hope you don't feel ganged up on. You're entitled to your opinion. I think this is just a sensitive topic for many because, unlike you, many pro-sexy babe fans have been rude, verbally abusive, and taken things a lot farther as well (remember the events that got CBR shut down?) in recent months. So we're all a bit fired up when we see this topic come up each time. Anyway, I'm less worried about the message those sexy covers send to women and more about what they reiterate for men. At a time when we've got Gamergate spinning way out of control, people phoning in terrorist threats to keep feminists from holding public lectures, public celebrities hacked and having nude photos of them distributed for the world to see, and just about any high profile woman who speaks out about negative depictions of women as sex objects being threatened with rape and murder, it's clear that we need to stop feeding the beast. There's nothing wrong with someone like yourself enjoying a sexy image of a favorite superheroine, but for a lot of other people out there, it's feeding into something deeply ugly and harmful. I feel as uncomfortable about Wonder Woman being depicted as a sex object as I would at having a cover of Superman where he's wearing nothing but a G string, a prominent super bulge clearly visible. He's a hero, an embodiment of the very best of us, not a beefcake. Same is true for Wonder Woman. Emphasizing their sexiness over their other inherent qualities is...well...demeaning. That being said, nothing is stopping someone for seeking out animated pornography that emphasizes these things. I just don't want them on the covers of mainstream comic books. That's not what those characters are about. Yeah that is definitely one way to look at it. I do think that it is really disturbing when folks take things out of their own element and try to apply to reality and real world situations. If someone has an issue with mainstream comics and how a lot of the characters are visually depicted, I could understand because of the male power fantasy along with the other problems we've had in the last couple of years. At the same time I guess I just wouldn't want folks to be angry at me for liking what I see. Does that make me a sicko? A pervert? A goon for liking these works of fiction? I guess it's up to personal interpretation. I will say a lot of folks are ruining it for people that just want to read comic books with beautiful looking women and muscle bound guys in a narrative. Kind of reminds me of the rap music scene in the early 90's when gangster rap was all the rage and folks were cracking down on it as a determent to our American society. The same stigma against rap music still goes on today. If it doesn't hurt anyone else, it's no one's place to judge what you do or do not like. And it doesn't hurt anyone so long as it's kept out of the mainstream comic releases. There are plenty of websites that feature that kind of art. It need not be an artist's definitive take on Diana or any other character during a creative run in order for you to be able to find and enjoy it. |
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Post by BigPapaJoe on Oct 17, 2014 20:05:04 GMT -5
Yeah that is definitely one way to look at it. I do think that it is really disturbing when folks take things out of their own element and try to apply to reality and real world situations. If someone has an issue with mainstream comics and how a lot of the characters are visually depicted, I could understand because of the male power fantasy along with the other problems we've had in the last couple of years. At the same time I guess I just wouldn't want folks to be angry at me for liking what I see. Does that make me a sicko? A pervert? A goon for liking these works of fiction? I guess it's up to personal interpretation. I will say a lot of folks are ruining it for people that just want to read comic books with beautiful looking women and muscle bound guys in a narrative. Kind of reminds me of the rap music scene in the early 90's when gangster rap was all the rage and folks were cracking down on it as a determent to our American society. The same stigma against rap music still goes on today. If it doesn't hurt anyone else, it's no one's place to judge what you do or do not like. And it doesn't hurt anyone so long as it's kept out of the mainstream comic releases. There are plenty of websites that feature that kind of art. It need not be an artist's definitive take on Diana or any other character during a creative run in order for you to be able to find and enjoy it. I understand. I just want to make it clear that I mean for me, I just meant current comics that are sold in regular stores as to what I like. Nothing really beyond that. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2014 23:01:41 GMT -5
I've been thinking about something. I'm not as avid a comic book reader and historian as a lot of people. Including probably most here. I try to keep up and read the stories that I think are interesting. Simply I don't have that much time on my hands. At least now. Anyways, I feel there is always something in the news lately regarding comic books and where is the line drawn in terms of what is offensive towards women and how they are portrayed. As time as gone on mainstream American comics which are dominated by the superhero genre have been geared more towards adults with more adult themes and content. Along the way we've had more and more women supeheroines physically depicted as having model height, beautiful faces, and sometimes breasts that may be bigger than what is usually seen in reality. Of course this depends on the artist/writer interprets these characters in whatever narrative. Now though the boundary has been further challenged with incidents like the Spiderwoman cover controversy. Along with the Wonder Girl controversy which was also a cover. When the new 52 started Catwoman had that certain scene with Batman. This has caused an uproar in some cases. But I say, what if I don't mind this reality? And I know this sounds like a perverted guy that just wants to have his sexy looking women trotting around in heels with their big boobs in comics. I don't want the characters, whether male or female to act irrationally and simply be visual aesthetics without substance in any narrative. But what I'm saying I guess is who cares if I want women just "looking" like supermodels that can do anything. Part of the reason I like Wonder Woman is because she looks hot. I wouldn't want her acting like a seductive tramp though. Part of the reason I like Batman/Superman is because they look like they can do anything with those muscles. I'd love to look like that! I don't want either of them acting like macho idiots though. I like the way David Finch, Jim Lee, or Jason Fabok depict their people. Now when you have Ed Benes having ass shots in more than one panel then I could see where the envelope might be intentionally pushed. But I like this heightened reality. At times I hear some complaints and I think "wait why do people feel so offended because a woman has big boobs or is in what might be a sultry pose on a cover?" Maybe I'd have to be a woman to understand why these things might make them feel objectified if that is what is happening. I just never hear these complaints about Superman or The Hulk flexing their muscles. If I'm missing the big picture help me understand. The way I see it is, what if all the sudden Daisy Duck and Minnie Mouse were drawn in cheesecake fashion? There's plenty of places for people who like cheesecake comics to get that, but does it have to be every single comic in print? Why freak out if WOnder WOman has pants on? That happened by the way. Why freak out if Batgirl doesn't have gigantic jugs? There's always Witchblade if you're into that, and Witchblade isn't being marketed toward little girls in other forms of media, so knock yourself out and you'll see hardly a complaint from me. I collect a few cheesecake comics. I even collect some explicit adult comics. I can also live without them, and if they were featuring IP that was aggressively marketed toward children, and traditionally a children's property, I'd rather they not be Maxim style skin mags. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2014 23:05:29 GMT -5
Also, the trend in changing the depiction of women in comics isn't the result of some sort of PC thought police on behalf of feminists who don't even read comics. It's a result of market research by executives who realize there is a huge comics market and they only get a small piece of it because of their niche product. And yes, mainstream comics are a niche product. So Glory's current incarnation, Batgirl's current incarnation, these aren't the result of angry women who complained too much. They're the result of people not buying the old Glory and the old Batgirl. It's an attempt to court a wider market, and no matter how much you like sexy superheroes, it's a small market compared to attractive but still clothed superheroes that aren't 100% crotch shots. The super heroes in movies are attractive, but they're also clothed and the camera shows more than their ass.
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Post by BigPapaJoe on Oct 18, 2014 2:41:25 GMT -5
I do think the Japanese model got it right. They have a WIDE variety of genres that sell pretty well as opposed to one genre, the superhero, the dominates that market like it does here. It might be difficult at this point to reverse the trend. American comic books and superheroes have essentially been one in the same almost forever. It would be like another football league trying to overtake the NFL. At this point it's almost impossible.
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Post by Dizzy D on Oct 18, 2014 5:48:14 GMT -5
I've been thinking about something. I'm not as avid a comic book reader and historian as a lot of people. Including probably most here. I try to keep up and read the stories that I think are interesting. Simply I don't have that much time on my hands. At least now. Anyways, I feel there is always something in the news lately regarding comic books and where is the line drawn in terms of what is offensive towards women and how they are portrayed. As time as gone on mainstream American comics which are dominated by the superhero genre have been geared more towards adults with more adult themes and content. Along the way we've had more and more women supeheroines physically depicted as having model height, beautiful faces, and sometimes breasts that may be bigger than what is usually seen in reality. Of course this depends on the artist/writer interprets these characters in whatever narrative. Now though the boundary has been further challenged with incidents like the Spiderwoman cover controversy. Along with the Wonder Girl controversy which was also a cover. When the new 52 started Catwoman had that certain scene with Batman. This has caused an uproar in some cases. But I say, what if I don't mind this reality? And I know this sounds like a perverted guy that just wants to have his sexy looking women trotting around in heels with their big boobs in comics. I don't want the characters, whether male or female to act irrationally and simply be visual aesthetics without substance in any narrative. But what I'm saying I guess is who cares if I want women just "looking" like supermodels that can do anything. Part of the reason I like Wonder Woman is because she looks hot. I wouldn't want her acting like a seductive tramp though. Part of the reason I like Batman/Superman is because they look like they can do anything with those muscles. I'd love to look like that! I don't want either of them acting like macho idiots though. I like the way David Finch, Jim Lee, or Jason Fabok depict their people. Now when you have Ed Benes having ass shots in more than one panel then I could see where the envelope might be intentionally pushed. But I like this heightened reality. At times I hear some complaints and I think "wait why do people feel so offended because a woman has big boobs or is in what might be a sultry pose on a cover?" Maybe I'd have to be a woman to understand why these things might make them feel objectified if that is what is happening. I just never hear these complaints about Superman or The Hulk flexing their muscles. If I'm missing the big picture help me understand. The way I see it is, what if all the sudden Daisy Duck and Minnie Mouse were drawn in cheesecake fashion? There's plenty of places for people who like cheesecake comics to get that, but does it have to be every single comic in print? Why freak out if WOnder WOman has pants on? That happened by the way. Why freak out if Batgirl doesn't have gigantic jugs? There's always Witchblade if you're into that, and Witchblade isn't being marketed toward little girls in other forms of media, so knock yourself out and you'll see hardly a complaint from me. I collect a few cheesecake comics. I even collect some explicit adult comics. I can also live without them, and if they were featuring IP that was aggressively marketed toward children, and traditionally a children's property, I'd rather they not be Maxim style skin mags.  (I'm joking, just wanted to use the opportunity to promote Sejic, who I've recently discovered. Not that he hasn't done cheesecake himself, but his regular Witchblade at least had the Witchblade in full body armour instead of the strips of bikini armour it usually had, but nobody told the cover artists apparently.) |
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Post by the4thpip on Oct 18, 2014 9:14:02 GMT -5
This site gives a good idea about how male and female depictions are very different on comicbook covers, though both have "exaggerated" physiques: thehawkeyeinitiative.com/ |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2014 11:14:57 GMT -5
So many people I know are so deeply disturbed by the Hawkeye Initiative, but I think it does a great job of challenging the assumptions that are at the core of this issue for me.
-M
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ironchimp
Full Member
Simian Overlord
Posts: 456 
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Post by ironchimp on Oct 18, 2014 11:15:37 GMT -5
The fashion and magazine industry are the true offenders as they present elongated, photoshopped models as reality and it seems perfectly acceptable to present anorexic women as some kind of ideal.
Comics are fiction and as fiction have every right to run the whole gamut of the legal limits of the imagination
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2014 11:31:39 GMT -5
The fashion and magazine industry are the true offenders as they present elongated, photoshopped models as reality and it seems perfectly acceptable to present anorexic women as some kind of ideal. I would imagine the overlap between people who are ok with fashion magazines' depictions of women but not comics' is pretty small. They absolutely have the right, but that doesn't mean exercising that right is always a good idea. |
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ironchimp
Full Member
Simian Overlord
Posts: 456
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Post by ironchimp on Oct 18, 2014 11:36:15 GMT -5
That's placing a subjective personal moral judgement on fiction which is of course your right. That doesn't mean doing that is always a good idea either though.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2014 11:41:31 GMT -5
I see. Guess I'm done here.
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ironchimp
Full Member
Simian Overlord
Posts: 456
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Post by ironchimp on Oct 18, 2014 12:07:11 GMT -5
I'm not sure what you see but it really isnt up to you or I to say what's a good idea for a writer or artist to do.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2014 12:24:45 GMT -5
I shall now attempt to bitchslap this thread back onto new comics. *slap* Here we go, anyone get Wytches #1? I just ordered this one from Midtown.  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2014 12:34:11 GMT -5
I got it, I read it, it was an interesting start. Love Jock's art, and I am hopeful Snyder's ending this time can live up to the interesting premise he set up, something he has only done with Severed so far among his entire oeuvre of comics and prose stories (and there he had a co-writer doing a lot of the heavy lifting), so I am taking this one issue by issue.
-M
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