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Post by BigPapaJoe on Oct 16, 2014 3:11:41 GMT -5
Are you folks going to pick up the new Wonder Woman that is slated to drop soon with David Finch as artist and his wife as writer? David is one of my favorite artists out there. I'm definitely going to give it a go. Wonder Woman is also a superhero that has grown on me since reading the George Perez run from the 80's. Looking forward to this.
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Post by Dizzy D on Oct 16, 2014 4:47:34 GMT -5
Are you folks going to pick up the new Wonder Woman that is slated to drop soon with David Finch as artist and his wife as writer? David is one of my favorite artists out there. I'm definitely going to give it a go. Wonder Woman is also a superhero that has grown on me since reading the George Perez run from the 80's. Looking forward to this. I'm buying Wonder Woman basically for Cliff Chiang's art right now (60% Chiang, 20% Akins, 20% Azarello), so I'll probably be dropping it when the Finches hit. I'm buying trades though so if word of mouth is good I may get it, but not a fan of Finch. Maybe the writer will surprise me though. |
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Post by Dizzy D on Oct 16, 2014 9:36:43 GMT -5
Only Storm this week, which is good because I still have some trades left from last week and the European market has been moving (new Jeremiah, new spin-off of Don Lawrence's Storm, new Texas Cowboys). I got really excited and thought Don Lawrence is being brought to the US, but then if I'm remembering correctly you're outside of the US.  Well, there has been some Don Lawrence material recently released in the US: Marvel's Miracleman/Marvelman reprints had some B&W stories from Lawrence in the 50s. (It's very different from his later, more reknown style though). As for the Storm spinoff Romano Molenaar seems to be the artist on the spinoff (he's also the main series current artist). I thought that some Storm was published in the US though? I'm pretty sure that I saw a translation of The Killer From Eriban in Philadelphia years ago. Could be an english translation that crossed the pond though. |
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ironchimp
Full Member
Simian Overlord
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Post by ironchimp on Oct 16, 2014 10:18:12 GMT -5
I *think* there was a Storm edition by Titan in the 80s in English, but the only current English version are those really expensive hardback editions - I am sure it was over $1000 for a set of them so... not exactly competitively priced. Love to be wrong tho.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2014 10:22:09 GMT -5
Are you folks going to pick up the new Wonder Woman that is slated to drop soon with David Finch as artist and his wife as writer? David is one of my favorite artists out there. I'm definitely going to give it a go. Wonder Woman is also a superhero that has grown on me since reading the George Perez run from the 80's. Looking forward to this. I won't go into the reasons again (already did in threads in the Hall of Justice forums) but to sum it up....HELL NO! -M |
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Post by the4thpip on Oct 16, 2014 12:49:17 GMT -5
The only upcoming DC book that might get me back to reading ANY Nu52 book might be the new Secret Six.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2014 16:56:20 GMT -5
Finally scored a copy of that Usagi Yojimbo hardcover. Paid a few dollars more than I would have liked, but that's what I get for not preordering. I really only paid five dollars over cover price, but I remember it being available for under $70 for a while.
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Post by BigPapaJoe on Oct 17, 2014 2:05:47 GMT -5
I've been thinking about something. I'm not as avid a comic book reader and historian as a lot of people. Including probably most here. I try to keep up and read the stories that I think are interesting. Simply I don't have that much time on my hands. At least now. Anyways, I feel there is always something in the news lately regarding comic books and where is the line drawn in terms of what is offensive towards women and how they are portrayed. As time as gone on mainstream American comics which are dominated by the superhero genre have been geared more towards adults with more adult themes and content. Along the way we've had more and more women supeheroines physically depicted as having model height, beautiful faces, and sometimes breasts that may be bigger than what is usually seen in reality. Of course this depends on the artist/writer interprets these characters in whatever narrative. Now though the boundary has been further challenged with incidents like the Spiderwoman cover controversy. Along with the Wonder Girl controversy which was also a cover. When the new 52 started Catwoman had that certain scene with Batman. This has caused an uproar in some cases.
But I say, what if I don't mind this reality? And I know this sounds like a perverted guy that just wants to have his sexy looking women trotting around in heels with their big boobs in comics. I don't want the characters, whether male or female to act irrationally and simply be visual aesthetics without substance in any narrative. But what I'm saying I guess is who cares if I want women just "looking" like supermodels that can do anything. Part of the reason I like Wonder Woman is because she looks hot. I wouldn't want her acting like a seductive tramp though. Part of the reason I like Batman/Superman is because they look like they can do anything with those muscles. I'd love to look like that! I don't want either of them acting like macho idiots though.
I like the way David Finch, Jim Lee, or Jason Fabok depict their people. Now when you have Ed Benes having ass shots in more than one panel then I could see where the envelope might be intentionally pushed. But I like this heightened reality. At times I hear some complaints and I think "wait why do people feel so offended because a woman has big boobs or is in what might be a sultry pose on a cover?" Maybe I'd have to be a woman to understand why these things might make them feel objectified if that is what is happening. I just never hear these complaints about Superman or The Hulk flexing their muscles. If I'm missing the big picture help me understand.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2014 2:41:44 GMT -5
I've been thinking about something. I'm not as avid a comic book reader and historian as a lot of people. Including probably most here. I try to keep up and read the stories that I think are interesting. Simply I don't have that much time on my hands. At least now. Anyways, I feel there is always something in the news lately regarding comic books and where is the line drawn in terms of what is offensive towards women and how they are portrayed. As time as gone on mainstream American comics which are dominated by the superhero genre have been geared more towards adults with more adult themes and content. Along the way we've had more and more women supeheroines physically depicted as having model height, beautiful faces, and sometimes breasts that may be bigger than what is usually seen in reality. Of course this depends on the artist/writer interprets these characters in whatever narrative. Now though the boundary has been further challenged with incidents like the Spiderwoman cover controversy. Along with the Wonder Girl controversy which was also a cover. When the new 52 started Catwoman had that certain scene with Batman. This has caused an uproar in some cases. But I say, what if I don't mind this reality? And I know this sounds like a perverted guy that just wants to have his sexy looking women trotting around in heels with their big boobs in comics. I don't want the characters, whether male or female to act irrationally and simply be visual aesthetics without substance in any narrative. But what I'm saying I guess is who cares if I want women just "looking" like supermodels that can do anything. Part of the reason I like Wonder Woman is because she looks hot. I wouldn't want her acting like a seductive tramp though. Part of the reason I like Batman/Superman is because they look like they can do anything with those muscles. I'd love to look like that! I don't want either of them acting like macho idiots though. I like the way David Finch, Jim Lee, or Jason Fabok depict their people. Now when you have Ed Benes having ass shots in more than one panel then I could see where the envelope might be intentionally pushed. But I like this heightened reality. At times I hear some complaints and I think "wait why do people feel so offended because a woman has big boobs or is in what might be a sultry pose on a cover?" Maybe I'd have to be a woman to understand why these things might make them feel objectified if that is what is happening. I just never hear these complaints about Superman or The Hulk flexing their muscles. If I'm missing the big picture help me understand. Because super-hero male physiques are a male power fantasy and appeals mostly to men. Many men don't feel offended because they aspire to that physique and the power it implies. Big-breasted super-model female super-hero physiques are not a female power fantasy, they are simply another male power fantasy that appeals mostly to men. Men aspire to possess it, and you don't possess people who you respect or consider your equal. You don't possess people period. You possess objects. What is does do though, is take power away from the gender being depicted in such a manner by making them the object of fantasy to someone else and not a person. Not every case of objectification leads to victimization, but research points strongly that most cases of victimization are preceded by objectification. It is easier to victimize an object than a person, so objectification is not a harmless fantasy, there are real-life repercussions to it. And basically it's not about what you want, especially if what you want is potentially harmful. Really why should it be about what you want and not about what someone else wants? Say a girl looking to read comics and not feel like she is not considered welcome? Or the gay man who doesn't want cheesecake covers? Or a hetero male who doesn't want covers that objectify the majority gender of the human race? Or the parent who wants to take his or her kids into a comic shop to look for books about the characters their kids saw on tv or in the movies without exposing them to cheesecake and guys drooling over it. Is there a place for that kind of cover? Maybe, but on mainstream books from the big two that are looking to capture a mass audience-no. If someone wants that stuff-fine create a specialty market for it, but someone who just wants to read a good Wonder Woman comic shouldn't have to get that stuff. Want to make it a variant cover and possibly charge more for it to pay for the extra cost and smaller market for it, great, don't make it the de facto choice for everyone else though. The fastest growing sector in the comic consumer market is women 18-35. Books that are friendly to that demographic are seeing sales trend upwards. Books that continue to push the cheesecake type covers you say you want are experience long-term sales attrition at a faster rate than the normal mainstream comics. Look at Saga-the lead character Alanna is a smart, strong, capable woman and is depicted as such on the covers, even when one cover depicts her breastfeeding her child. It is one of the fastest growing books on the market, wins all kinds of critical awards from Eisner's to Hugos, and sells well in the 18-35 demographic, especially with women. It doesn't alienate half of it's potential customers by objectifying one of its protagonists on the cover. So there is a business component to it that publishers need to start considering. I am sorry that you and other folks ability to get sexy looking super-hero covers is being impinged on. You're losing a luxury, however, not a right. But every human, regardless of gender, has a right not to be objectified-to be treated as a person, not an object. I'll take their rights over your luxury every day of the week though. And if you don't feel it objectifies them, well too bad, it's not your call, you are not the one being objectified. You don't get to dictate what makes others comfortable or uncomfortable based on your preferences. Nor do you get to define what is acceptable for them to feel when seeing it or what an acceptable reaction is for them. It's not about being PC. It's about having empathy for someone who may not react to things the way you do. -M my 2 cents, feel free to disagree |
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Post by the4thpip on Oct 17, 2014 5:43:19 GMT -5
I'd also challenge the idea that depictions of women the seem to appeal mostly to 14 to 21 year old boys make comics more "adult" or "mature."
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Post by BigPapaJoe on Oct 17, 2014 11:12:16 GMT -5
I could see the male power fantasy angle that appeals mostly to guys. And that's fair. I guess it's more of a business move than anything else. Sex sells as they say. I do wonder though, what would the majority of women want to see visually in most comics of the superhero genre? Just women of all shapes and sizes? What would cease the idea of "mainstream American comics are objectifying women" in the eyes to the majority?
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
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Post by shaxper on Oct 17, 2014 11:53:02 GMT -5
I could see the male power fantasy angle that appeals mostly to guys. And that's fair. I guess it's more of a business move than anything else. Sex sells as they say. I do wonder though, what would the majority of women want to see visually in most comics of the superhero genre? Just women of all shapes and sizes? What would cease the idea of "mainstream American comics are objectifying women" in the eyes to the majority? First off, because I'm about to take the other side as well, I want to be clear that I hope you don't feel ganged up on. You're entitled to your opinion. I think this is just a sensitive topic for many because, unlike you, many pro-sexy babe fans have been rude, verbally abusive, and taken things a lot farther as well (remember the events that got CBR shut down?) in recent months. So we're all a bit fired up when we see this topic come up each time. Anyway, I'm less worried about the message those sexy covers send to women and more about what they reiterate for men. At a time when we've got Gamergate spinning way out of control, people phoning in terrorist threats to keep feminists from holding public lectures, public celebrities hacked and having nude photos of them distributed for the world to see, and just about any high profile woman who speaks out about negative depictions of women as sex objects being threatened with rape and murder, it's clear that we need to stop feeding the beast. There's nothing wrong with someone like yourself enjoying a sexy image of a favorite superheroine, but for a lot of other people out there, it's feeding into something deeply ugly and harmful. I feel as uncomfortable about Wonder Woman being depicted as a sex object as I would at having a cover of Superman where he's wearing nothing but a G string, a prominent super bulge clearly visible. He's a hero, an embodiment of the very best of us, not a beefcake. Same is true for Wonder Woman. Emphasizing their sexiness over their other inherent qualities is...well...demeaning. That being said, nothing is stopping someone for seeking out animated pornography that emphasizes these things. I just don't want them on the covers of mainstream comic books. That's not what those characters are about. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 17, 2014 14:00:35 GMT -5
I'd also challenge the idea that depictions of women the seem to appeal mostly to 14 to 21 year old boys make comics more "adult" or "mature." I agree. An adult or mature take on a sexy female character would be Maggie from Love & Rockets, not Lady Death. The business has a tendency to confuse the terms "inappropriate for children" and "mature"! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2014 15:31:03 GMT -5
Busiek really has been crafting a few tales for the ages with the new run. It deserves much better sales than it gets. Hoping it does well in trades. You should, but start at the older ones.. the current series has been a bit more hit or miss... a couple of the stories have been great, but a couple have been kinda meh. I agree - the recent ones haven't done much for me at all; in fact, it all went pear-shaped with those interminable Dark Age series, as far as I'm concerned. Pretty much everything before those is gold, those are terrible, and then the recent ones are mediocre. |
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Post by BigPapaJoe on Oct 17, 2014 19:56:34 GMT -5
I could see the male power fantasy angle that appeals mostly to guys. And that's fair. I guess it's more of a business move than anything else. Sex sells as they say. I do wonder though, what would the majority of women want to see visually in most comics of the superhero genre? Just women of all shapes and sizes? What would cease the idea of "mainstream American comics are objectifying women" in the eyes to the majority? First off, because I'm about to take the other side as well, I want to be clear that I hope you don't feel ganged up on. You're entitled to your opinion. I think this is just a sensitive topic for many because, unlike you, many pro-sexy babe fans have been rude, verbally abusive, and taken things a lot farther as well (remember the events that got CBR shut down?) in recent months. So we're all a bit fired up when we see this topic come up each time. Anyway, I'm less worried about the message those sexy covers send to women and more about what they reiterate for men. At a time when we've got Gamergate spinning way out of control, people phoning in terrorist threats to keep feminists from holding public lectures, public celebrities hacked and having nude photos of them distributed for the world to see, and just about any high profile woman who speaks out about negative depictions of women as sex objects being threatened with rape and murder, it's clear that we need to stop feeding the beast. There's nothing wrong with someone like yourself enjoying a sexy image of a favorite superheroine, but for a lot of other people out there, it's feeding into something deeply ugly and harmful. I feel as uncomfortable about Wonder Woman being depicted as a sex object as I would at having a cover of Superman where he's wearing nothing but a G string, a prominent super bulge clearly visible. He's a hero, an embodiment of the very best of us, not a beefcake. Same is true for Wonder Woman. Emphasizing their sexiness over their other inherent qualities is...well...demeaning. That being said, nothing is stopping someone for seeking out animated pornography that emphasizes these things. I just don't want them on the covers of mainstream comic books. That's not what those characters are about. Yeah that is definitely one way to look at it. I do think that it is really disturbing when folks take things out of their own element and try to hurt or threaten other people for sharing their opinion. If someone has an issue with mainstream comics and how a lot of the characters are visually depicted, I could understand because of the male power fantasy along with the other problems we've had in the last couple of years. At the same time I guess I just wouldn't want folks to be angry at me for liking what I see. Does that make me a sicko? A pervert? A goon for liking these works of fiction with characters that could be associated with a male power fantasy? I guess it's up to personal interpretation. Am I a bad guy if I say I like women with decently sized breasts? I don't know. I do know that that is information I wouldn't share out in public for fear of hurting someone's feelings or coming off as a dude that objectifies another person (hmm...does liking a woman with a certain chest size equate to discrimination and objectification?) Is it a crime to have a preference? I will say a lot of folks are ruining it for people that just want to read comic books with beautiful looking women and muscle bound guys in a narrative. Kind of reminds me of the rap music scene in the early 90's when gangster rap was all the rage and folks were cracking down on it as a determent to our American society. The same stigma against rap music still goes on today. |
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