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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 7, 2015 21:18:44 GMT -5
To each his own but under Shooters era we got Millers Daredevil, Simonsons Thor, Byrnes FF , the entire Epic line and other books I can't recall at the moment. I would call that far from soul less.
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Post by Cei-U! on Mar 8, 2015 10:34:10 GMT -5
The Avengers stuff was almost all Palmer except for figure positioning and posing, which is pretty much all Big John was contributing to the book at that point. No. No. No. No. No. No. What Big John is contributing is the pacing, the story beats, the staging, the camera angles, the characters' body language, all the major storytelling decisions necessary to the narrative. Buscema is doing all the hard work, the *mental* work that precedes the mere mechanics of drawing. Don't get me wrong, I love what Palmer brings to the table but let's not slight John in the process of lauding Tom. Cei-U! I summon the reappraisal! |
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 8, 2015 16:50:49 GMT -5
The Avengers stuff was almost all Palmer except for figure positioning and posing, which is pretty much all Big John was contributing to the book at that point. No. No. No. No. No. No. What Big John is contributing is the pacing, the story beats, the staging, the camera angles, the characters' body language, all the major storytelling decisions necessary to the narrative. Buscema is doing all the hard work, the *mental* work that precedes the mere mechanics of drawing. Don't get me wrong, I love what Palmer brings to the table but let's not slight John in the process of lauding Tom. Cei-U! I summon the reappraisal! Well said , well said. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 18:09:07 GMT -5
The Avengers stuff was almost all Palmer except for figure positioning and posing, which is pretty much all Big John was contributing to the book at that point. No. No. No. No. No. No. What Big John is contributing is the pacing, the story beats, the staging, the camera angles, the characters' body language, all the major storytelling decisions necessary to the narrative. Buscema is doing all the hard work, the *mental* work that precedes the mere mechanics of drawing. Don't get me wrong, I love what Palmer brings to the table but let's not slight John in the process of lauding Tom. Cei-U! I summon the reappraisal! Keith Giffen did the same thing the entire time he was co-writing the Justice League books, doing thumbnails and breaking down all the pages for Kevin Maguire and whoever else did the artwork, but we don't call that Giffen art, we call it Maguire art or whoever else was actually rendering the art onto the page for its look. If that was Buscema's contribution (and I am not doubting it was) he should at least have gotten a co-writing credit because the art on the page was more or less a Palmer product. -M |
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 9, 2015 5:30:37 GMT -5
It appears to me to be the classic Buscema facial expressions and movement for his last Avengers run. I consider that far from just thumbnails or breakdowns .
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2015 5:45:52 GMT -5
It appears to me to be the classic Buscema facial expressions and movement for his last Avengers run. I consider that far from just thumbnails or breakdowns . The credits of each issue, which list Buscema as breakdowns and Palmer as finishes (which often reflects what they were paid to do, and Big John was pro enough not to take breakdown pay and provide full pencils) would seem to disagree with you. -M |
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 9, 2015 6:14:35 GMT -5
I think he was pro enough to make sure facial expressions were part of the package. I've never seen any Tom Palmer solo artwork look like this:  |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Mar 9, 2015 17:09:32 GMT -5
The Avengers stuff was almost all Palmer except for figure positioning and posing, which is pretty much all Big John was contributing to the book at that point. No. No. No. No. No. No. What Big John is contributing is the pacing, the story beats, the staging, the camera angles, the characters' body language, all the major storytelling decisions necessary to the narrative. Buscema is doing all the hard work, the *mental* work that precedes the mere mechanics of drawing. Don't get me wrong, I love what Palmer brings to the table but let's not slight John in the process of lauding Tom. Cei-U! I summon the reappraisal! Fair point, I just wish he had decided to do it better.
I don't think the art was bad in the '80s Avengers books - the storytelling choices were clear and effective, just rote and uncreative compared to what Big John was doing a decade earlier.
Well, that and occasionally just doofy looking, as with Troll Doll Cap pictured above.
As a guy who cares much more about how the story is told than the rendering, it's frustrating to me to see an artist obviously working at so far beyond their capability. Silver Surfer was NEVER doofy looking.
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 9, 2015 20:31:26 GMT -5
Edit- I just read in wiki that Buscemas last Avengers issue was Annual #23 which he penciled and inked. I'll see if I can post pages later.
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Post by Cei-U! on Mar 9, 2015 20:42:22 GMT -5
The pages in question, though, were drawn 15 to 20 years before his death in 2002.
Cei-U!
I summon the time lag!
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 9, 2015 21:20:27 GMT -5
The pages in question, though, were drawn 15 to 20 years before his death in 2002. Cei-U! I summon the time lag! No argument from me. I happen to think he was the best artist Marvel ever had. Sorry Jack. |
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,865
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Post by shaxper on Dec 6, 2022 8:48:34 GMT -5
Well, it's taken me seven and a half years, but I've FINALLY read Avengers from (most of) the beginning up to the Under Siege storyline, and I'll admit to being surprised that I'm not enjoying the story as much as I expected to. I'm three issues in (two remaining) and like it, but I'm not blown away. I wonder if it mattered whether or not you were reading X-Men at the time. If you weren't, the idea that the team could be vulnerable, their home infiltrated, a character (nearly) killed, and that they could be left feeling utterly hopeless might have been shocking and new, but if you followed the X-Men at all, they'd been there and done that already, and I would argue each was more memorable in their circumstance. Formerly weak female characters finding their inner strength and resolve too.
I'm still really hoping the final two parts will wow me. I like it; I do. I just don't see it as the team's finest hour at all. So far, I actually enjoyed the previous Kang storyline more. That being said, this version of The Masters of Evil just might be making my list for the Classic Comics Christmas...
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,865
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Post by shaxper on Dec 6, 2022 8:56:55 GMT -5
From the list, I'd have to go with Under Siege, but I would have liked to have seen Celestial Madonna on there, too. Plus, Lost in Space-Time from WCA. (Englehart is my favorite Avengers writer.) Now having read all of these, I have to concur with this sentiment from all those years ago. The Celestial Madonna remains my favorite Avengers storyline. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Dec 6, 2022 19:22:16 GMT -5
Well, it's taken me seven and a half years, but I've FINALLY read Avengers from (most of) the beginning up to the Under Siege storyline, and I'll admit to being surprised that I'm not enjoying the story as much as I expected to. I'm three issues in (two remaining) and like it, but I'm not blown away. I wonder if it mattered whether or not you were reading X-Men at the time. If you weren't, the idea that the team could be vulnerable, their home infiltrated, a character (nearly) killed, and that they could be left feeling utterly hopeless might have been shocking and new, but if you followed the X-Men at all, they'd been there and done that already, and I would argue each was more memorable in their circumstance. Formerly weak female characters finding their inner strength and resolve too. I'm still really hoping the final two parts will wow me. I like it; I do. I just don't see it as the team's finest hour at all. So far, I actually enjoyed the previous Kang storyline more. That being said, this version of The Masters of Evil just might be making my list for the Classic Comics Christmas... I had the same reaction when I first read " under seige". I read it recently and recognized the greatness of the storyline. I still don't think I would call it number one. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2022 20:31:11 GMT -5
I really dug Under Siege as it was coming out with the tension of what would happen next and having to wait a month between issues. Each time I read it as back issues when I had the whole story to digest at once and where I knew the outcome, I liked it less. I stopped rereading it so my appreciation of it wouldn't lessen more.
It's now been at least 20 years since I read it.
-M
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