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Post by fanboystranger on Feb 26, 2015 13:33:45 GMT -5
On the other hand, I think it was a pale shadow of his first Avengers run, and all the credit for the quality of that second run should go to Tom Palmer as Buscema was giving the barest of breakdowns and Palmer was doing the lion's share of the work. Far too many of Buscema's panels in that second run were simply figures in space with no attempt to give a background or contest tot he storytelling with the background filled in with just a solid block of color. It's telling that you can look at the cover to Avengers 255 and other things Palmer did solo and see no real discernible difference between that and the Palmer inked Busema stuff at the time in style and figure detail, not because Palmer was imitating Buscema, but because the Avengers stuff was almost all Palmer except for figure positioning and posing, which is pretty much all Big John was contributing to the book at that point. This is really interesting especially in light of what I recently learned about an issue of Star Wars where he drew over Howard Chaykin's minimal layouts. I hadn't realized before that I was essentially looking at Tom's art. He should really get more credit than he does. The thing about Tom's "inking" is that it is so distinctive that no matter whose pencils he's working over, it looks like Tom Palmer art. It doesn't surprise me that Big John was doing very loose layouts at that point because the end product was going to look like Tom Palmer art. Which is a good thing as I love Tom Palmer art! (Only Alfredo Alcala really stands out in my mind as having a similiar effect. And, of course, Alcala did a lot of work with Buscema on Savage Sword of Conan.) |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Feb 26, 2015 13:44:24 GMT -5
Yeah, but that was more of a rebound thing (at least, I thought so at the time, it's been ages).... then he moved on to Firebird. Re-hashing seemed really odd. It wasn't so much that he moved on to Firebird as Greer dumped him once her human and feline sides had been merged. She was more in control of her feelings, and she realized that she was toying with Hank's emotions (like a cat would, I guess. I'm a dog person, I don't know.) Firebird shows up at a critical moment and saves Hank from himself, and eventually he realizes that's why he has such strong feelings towards her. They were close friends, not really lovers.
Not saying it was a great character arc, but it did begin the rehabilitation of Hank as a character.
I had forgotten about that Tigra arc... I feel like the Firebird thing was a romance, though, and it ended because she was Catholic, and Hank wouldn't do religion...maybe I just read that in myself? |
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Post by badwolf on Feb 26, 2015 13:46:07 GMT -5
The thing about Tom's "inking" is that it is so distinctive that no matter whose pencils he's working over, it looks like Tom Palmer art. It doesn't surprise me that Big John was doing very loose layouts at that point because the end product was going to look like Tom Palmer art. Which is a good thing as I love Tom Palmer art! (Only Alfredo Alcala really stands out in my mind as having a similiar effect. And, of course, Alcala did a lot of work with Buscema on Savage Sword of Conan.) Yeah, I found that out when he inked Byrne on X-Men Hidden Years! |
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Post by fanboystranger on Feb 26, 2015 13:48:48 GMT -5
It wasn't so much that he moved on to Firebird as Greer dumped him once her human and feline sides had been merged. She was more in control of her feelings, and she realized that she was toying with Hank's emotions (like a cat would, I guess. I'm a dog person, I don't know.) Firebird shows up at a critical moment and saves Hank from himself, and eventually he realizes that's why he has such strong feelings towards her. They were close friends, not really lovers.
Not saying it was a great character arc, but it did begin the rehabilitation of Hank as a character.
I had forgotten about that Tigra arc... I feel like the Firebird thing was a romance, though, and it ended because she was Catholic, and Hank wouldn't do religion...maybe I just read that in myself? How could you forget the Tigra arc? It gave us this classic Daimon Hellstrom costume!
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 26, 2015 16:57:16 GMT -5
Buscema /Palmer through the years: Avengers #79  Avengers #97  Avengers #260  Avengers # 276 
I don't see a drop off other than less backgrounds on some of the panels. |
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Post by badwolf on Feb 26, 2015 17:12:11 GMT -5
The look of the faces is still recognizably Buscema. Palmer just has a heavier inking style than the earlier artists.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Feb 26, 2015 19:57:06 GMT -5
Buscema /Palmer through the years: Avengers #260 I [/a] don't see a drop off other than less backgrounds on some of the panels.[/quote] Seriously? The top two panels are a muddled mess with no clear focal point and Cap on the bottom looks like a troll doll. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 26, 2015 20:02:16 GMT -5
To each his own I guess, I can still make out what's happening in those panels. On the following page the storytelling is flawless.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Feb 26, 2015 20:26:15 GMT -5
To each his own I guess, I can still make out what's happening in those panels. On the following page the storytelling is flawless. Yeah, I get that the theme is "shooting" but the similar "Attacking Skrull" panel from his earlier work strikes me as more striking, dramatic, and narratively stronger.
The other page is much better, though! Although he's just not doing cool design things like Rick's hand going through the panel border to indicate the cosmic scope of his powers any more. His storytelling choices aren't unclear, they're just much less innovative and... well, boring.
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Feb 26, 2015 20:56:29 GMT -5
You can really tell how dominant Palmer's inks were in the second run by looking at the title after Buscema left. Palmer remained on the book for a long, long time after. I forget exactly how long, but I think he was on the title for over a decade or something crazy.
If you look at Steve Epting's run on Avengers, which was early in his career, it looks really, really similar to Buscema's work in the #255-300 era. When Epting took over, I was like, wow, he's Buscema all over again! But it was really Palmer's inking overwhelming the pencils.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2015 23:04:12 GMT -5
You can really tell how dominant Palmer's inks were in the second run by looking at the title after Buscema left. Palmer remained on the book for a long, long time after. I forget exactly how long, but I think he was on the title for over a decade or something crazy. If you look at Steve Epting's run on Avengers, which was early in his career, it looks really, really similar to Buscema's work in the #255-300 era. When Epting took over, I was like, wow, he's Buscema all over again! But it was really Palmer's inking overwhelming the pencils. Which is exactly why I think Palmer should get any/all credit/blame for the quality of the look of the second Buscema run, it was a Plamer run with Buscvema chipping breakdown/layouts, not a Buscema run per se. You can see a similar drop off in Buscema's stuff looking at Conan on his second stint on the book compared to his classic run with Roy-both there and in Avengers you can see that Big John was a consummate professional and a draftsman, but those second runs really were paint by numbers by Buscema, nothing really interesting or innovative as opposed to those first runs. Buscema phoning it in is still better than a lot of his contemporaries, but it was pretty obvious Big John was just doing his job in those second runs, getting the layouts done, meeting the deadlines, and getting his salary. He was doing 2-3 books a month, month in month out, there was no way he was putting his full time effort and attention into each panel or page though, not and making those deadlines, hence sparser panels, less detail, only layouts/breakdowns not full pencils, etc. etc. -M - |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Feb 27, 2015 20:22:51 GMT -5
Huh. I never knew how strongly Palmer was involved. Maybe it's his art that I don't like?
Still, even on the basic layout stage, I think Buscema was making better formal design and camera placement choices in his first run.
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Post by fanboystranger on Feb 27, 2015 20:33:23 GMT -5
If you look at Steve Epting's run on Avengers, which was early in his career, it looks really, really similar to Buscema's work in the #255-300 era. When Epting took over, I was like, wow, he's Buscema all over again! But it was really Palmer's inking overwhelming the pencils. Yeah, I remember thinking that, too, before I really paid too much attention to inkers. Then Epting went to DC for Aquaman, and I saw a slight Kaluta feel to his art. I was actually somewhat disappointed because I thought Steve was Big John's stylistic heir, but it was really Palmer all along. |
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on Mar 7, 2015 18:19:35 GMT -5
Huh. I never knew how strongly Palmer was involved. Maybe it's his art that I don't like? Still, even on the basic layout stage, I think Buscema was making better formal design and camera placement choices in his first run. I think this was always my bugbear with that Avengers run in the 80s, as nice as it is to have J. Buscema on anything, and as nice as it is to have a consistant creative team, when one creator starts to dominate (through style or workload or just choice) to the point where it distracts, well then its time to get going. That run became more and more of a chore for me as I became more aware of Palmers inking. I know it was probably a case of 2 pros doing their jobs, putting out the books they were hired to do, but when you knew what they were capable of when you were desperately wanting that, and you got...average...well... |
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Post by berkley on Mar 7, 2015 20:49:18 GMT -5
Huh. I never knew how strongly Palmer was involved. Maybe it's his art that I don't like? Still, even on the basic layout stage, I think Buscema was making better formal design and camera placement choices in his first run. I think this was always my bugbear with that Avengers run in the 80s, as nice as it is to have J. Buscema on anything, and as nice as it is to have a consistant creative team, when one creator starts to dominate (through style or workload or just choice) to the point where it distracts, well then its time to get going. That run became more and more of a chore for me as I became more aware of Palmers inking. I know it was probably a case of 2 pros doing their jobs, putting out the books they were hired to do, but when you knew what they were capable of when you were desperately wanting that, and you got...average...well... This is what bugs me when I see fans praising the Shooter as an editor because he ran a tight ship, etc, etc. Basically, they argue that he was a good administrator, to which I say, that's fine and dandy, but he turned Marvel into a soul-less story factory, churning out product with little regard to the quality. While in the 70s, it may have been disorganised and sloppily run, but for that very reason you'd get more experimentation and concern with the creative side rather than just doing a job. Of course that state of affairs was probably unsustainable in the long run and still wasn't ideal - the best books would often get cancelled early, for example, or rejected out of hand, like Stan did some of Steranko's ideas - but I'll take it over the Shooter years any day. |
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