shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 18, 2015 21:50:15 GMT -5
The next in our CCF Poll series, I pulled these nominations directly from our Top 100 Sagas countdown last year at the old site, which was dominated by Avengers storylines. So which one is the absolute BEST, and why do you think so?
Poll locks at 12 midnight on February 25th.
No griping about the choices, correct titles or issue numbers. I lifted these directly from the old thread and do not purport to be an Avengers expert myself. But, as someone planning on getting into the Avengers, I'm very interested in what you have to say about these stories.
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Feb 18, 2015 22:36:33 GMT -5
On my old, now defunct, blog, I ranked my Top 25 Avengers stories. A couple of them were single issue stories, but most were storylines, given that is what Avengers was best at. My #1 is Under Siege, aka Mansion Siege depending on who you're talking to. Just a great buildup, great character work, classic John Buscema art and awesome Roger Stern writing. It has some of my favorite individual moments in Avengers history as well, and I also read it when it was coming out, at the age of 13, so it left a big imprint on my impressionable brain. I'll have to dig up the whole list, but I have Korvac Saga at #2 and the Kang Dynasty at #3 (which is part of Kurt Busiek's run). Okay, here's my whole list:
25) The Gatherers (Avengers #343-375)
24) Once An Avenger (Avengers vol. 3 #1-3)
23) The Avengers/Defenders War (Avengers #116-118, Defenders #8-11)
22) The Olympus War (Avengers #281-285)
21) The Thanos War (Captain Marvel #25-33, Avengers #125)
20) The Trial (Avengers #160)
19) Lost in Space-Time (West Coast Avengers #17-24)
18) Enter the Squadron Sinister! (Avengers #69-71)
17) The Serpent Crown Saga (Avengers #141-144, 147-148)
16) Avengers Forever (Avengers Forever #1-12)
15) Ultron Mark 12 (West Coast Avengers #7) - this is a personal pick that nobody else cares about
14) The Squadron Supreme (Avengers #85-86)
13) The Death of Adam Warlock (Avengers Annual #7, Marvel Two-in-One Annual #2)
12) Ultron Unlimited (Avengers vol. 3 #19-23)
11) The New Masters of Evil (Avengers #54-55)
10) JLA/Avengers (JLA/Avengers #1-4)
9) The Celestial Madonna (Avengers #129-135, Giant-Size Avengers #2-4)
8) The Great Betrayal (Avengers #66-68)
7) Nefaria Supreme (Avengers #164-166)
6) The Kree/Skrull War (Avengers #89-97)
5) The Fall of Hank Pym (Avengers #211-213, 217, 221-222, 224, 227-230)
4) The Bride of Ultron (Avengers #161-162)
3) Kang Dynasty (Avengers vol. 3 #41-54)
2) The Korvac Saga (Avengers #167-168, 170-177)
1) Under Siege (Avengers #271, 273-277)
If I were making this list now, I would find a way to add in Annual #2/#56, as that is a bit of a glaring omission. The Jarvis spotlight epilogue to Under Siege, in #280, is also worth a mention.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2015 22:39:31 GMT -5
You know my answer man, I have extolled this story-line every time it gets mentioned-Bride of Ultron, but it's like picking a favorite child for me-the Nefaria saga, the Korvac saga, the Death of Thanos in Ann 7/MTIO Ann 2 all defined my comics reading as a kid and made me a lifelong comic fan. The period between 140-191 (with annuals and tie ins like MTIO Ann. 2 and SVTU #9) is the sweet spot for the Avengers for me. The tail end of Englehart, the arrival of Perez, Shooter, Starlin, Byrne, Hellcat, Roxxon, Serpent Crown, Attuma, Doom, rebirth of Wonder Man, Graviton, Ultron, Grim Reaper, Jocasta, Nefaria, Thanos, Warlock, The Collector, The Guardians of the Galaxy, Gyrich, Ms. Marvel, the Wundagore saga, Arsenal (Ann #9 with art by Don Newton) etc. etc. it's just one classic story after another (with a few forgettable inventory stories thrown in because of the DDD).
But then I also love classic Thomas/Buscema and the earlier Englehart stuff (Kang & Mantis.Avengers/Defenders War) and of course the Busiek/PErez run for Heroes Reborn is what drew me into organized fandom on the computer The Old AML and WCAML I was part of) so I have fond memories of that too.
I am one of the rare Avengers fan who isn't crazy about Stern's run and the Under Siege arc. I thought it was solid, but Buscema's work then even with Palmer was a pale shadow of his classic Avengers stuff or even his Conan stuff and I didn't like a lot of the characters Stern focused on as much as some of the more classic line ups (part of this was the advent of the WCA who I felt stole a lot of the best pasts of a classic Avengers line up and left the heart of the team divided into 2 separate entities each of which was less than the previous whole was. So I can't say there is a bad choice on the list, but still my favorite is the Bride of Ultron even though it is more for nostalgic reasons than any kind of objective evaluation of quality.
-M
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Post by wildfire2099 on Feb 18, 2015 22:41:20 GMT -5
Hmmm... this is a tough one.
I'm not going to gripe at the choices... much. It seems weird to have Busiek's whole run as a choice, then one of his stories (Ultron Unlimited) separately.
A few of those I wasn't overly fond of.. the ones I like:
Let's see... Avengers-Defenders has a few epic moments, but re-reading now, it's very sixties.. with not only the 'team splits up into small parts' trope, but the 'first they fight, then they team up thing'.
Kree-Skrull war was great for some characters, not as great for others... but was hugely signifigant to the Marvel Universe.
Under Siege definitely deserves great consideration, but does focus pretty narrowly on Captain America, rather than the team as a whole.
Ultron Unlimited is the most modern of the stories, for sure, but I'm not sure it's even the best Busiek story (I liked Avengers Forever better)
JLA vs. Avengers is amazing art, and certainly makes ones inner fan boy sing, but it's not a great story.
I think I'm going to have to go with Under Siege... perhaps just because it's the last one I read, but it's the one that pops out to me most.
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Post by badwolf on Feb 18, 2015 23:13:59 GMT -5
This is a tough choice for me between "Under Siege" and Busiek's run. I'm voting for Busiek's run because it's bigger than just the one storyline. (If you had said Stern or Busiek, I'd probably have gone with Stern, though.)
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Feb 18, 2015 23:40:50 GMT -5
"Ego the Loving Planet" accept no substitutes!
The early Lee/Kirby run - I've read these a lot and these are some of my favorite "comfort food" comics - One of the first Epic-but-not-Thor/Surfer/style cosmic epic comics, and really the template for every other super team book that followed, even more-so than the Fantastic Four. But definitely not the best of early Marvel.
Kurt Busiek's run - Competent but boring This is one of those superhero comic that isn't about anything except dialoging with other superhero comics. The theme of this run seems to be "I (heart) the Avengers comics I read as a kid" and I really hate that kind of closed-circle by fanboys for fanboys mentality.
"The Avengers/Defenders War" (#115-118 and Defenders #8-11) - I like this better every time I read it, and it's kind of a cool idea, but a flimsy narrative. Plus it led to all the other crossovers and we know how badly THAT turned out.
"Bride of Ultron" (#161-162) - I've read this three times (at least) but don't remember much about it. Was this the cover with all the ants? That was a v. good cover. It introduced Jocasta, right? (I don't remember, but I guess from the name.) I liked Jocasta.
The Count Nefaria Saga (#164-166) - I think this one was okay? I read a lot of comics. You can't expect me to remember them all.
The Fall of Yellow Jacket/Hank Pym (#213-230) - I'm torn between "good continuity with the original story in Tales of Astonish # 27 where Hank Pym was straight out Looney Tunes" and thinking it's uncomfortably misogynistic.
"JLA vs. Avengers" - So inside baseball nerdy but I liked it. Even if you get rid of all the "let's make the people who have read comics forever happy stuff" (which I'm against on principle) there were multiple, strong, character driven narrative. And George Perez is good at drawing 7 billion characters.
"The Korvac Saga" (#167-177) - Yes, yes, yes, yes, lurv. Every page, every panel, the whole thing is a study in fun visual contrasts between the banal and the epic - especially where the Avengers go save the world on the city bus.
+
"The Kree/Skrull War" (#89-97) - "Two cows shot me down!" Some of the Neal Adams Ant-Man panels are burned into my frontal lobe forever, but I kinda thought the story got away from itself? Maybe? Been a while since I read it.
New Avengers vs. Old Avengers (#56 and Annual #2) - P. cool, but not even Don Heck's finest work. Not even Don Heck.
+
"The Squadron Supreme" (#85-86) - Nowhere near as good as the Rutland issue of JLA where they fight Spider-man.
The Thanos Saga (Marvel Premiere #178-181, Warlock #9-15, Avengers Annual #7, MTIO annual #2) - As an Avengers story? I'm not a huge fan of this, anyway, EXCEPT for Avengers Annual # 7, which is a classic for the ages.
+
"Ultron Unlimited" (v.3 #19-22) - Freaky and I liked this one a lot. It felt like a modern (as of 1998 or whatever) comic, rather than a re-writing of other people's old Avengers stories.
"Under Siege" (#270-276) - Classic for the ages, mad props to Uncle Rog, late period Buscema (even with Palmer) feels like a shadow of his former self. If 1968 John Buscema had drawn this, it might be my favorite.
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Post by coke & comics on Feb 19, 2015 0:09:09 GMT -5
The best story up there is the Thanos Saga, of course. But I'm not sure I'd call it an Avengers story. The Avengers really only appear in a couple issues of the whole thing. The smaller arc Avengers annual 7/Marvel Two-In-One annual 2 I might consider an Avengers story and perhaps even the best Avengers story.
For my money, the best Avengers story is the coming of the Vision from Avengers #57-58.
Everything on your list is good and most is great. The things I would cross off as contenders are the "new vs. old Avengers" story, the "Fall of Yellowjacket" and the "Squadron Supreme" arcs. And, more controversially, the next thing I would let go is the Stan Lee era stuff. It has its moments. Avengers #4 and the New Avengers arc from #15-16 are both excellent. But I think the rest of the list is on the whole better.
Similarly, Kurt Busiek's Avengers is a bit too broad. You could see it as a whole saga, and a good saga. But it's long and a bit too hit/miss to really rank in its entirety. His best stories though are contenders for the best stories. JLA/Avengers, Avengers Forever, his first 3-issue arc, Ultron Unlimited, the Kang War, etc.
Avengers/Defenders, Kree/Skrull War, Bride of Ultron, Nefaria Saga... all rightly classics and strong contenders. The Kree/Skrull war I find a bit tricky to judge by modern standards because it's not a single coherent arc per se, it's a collection of issues that people have tried to package as a saga. But it's a great collection of issues.
I think my favorite Stern/Buscema arc though isn't Under Siege but the battle with Nebula.
Anyways, forced to vote, I picked Korvac Saga from the above, given my caveats about Thanos Saga.
My top 5 Avengers stories off the top of my head and subject to change in 5 minutes:
1. Final Threat (Avengers annual 7/Marvel 2-in-One annual 2)
2. Behold the Vision (Avengers #57-58)
3. Captain America joins the Avengers
4. Korvac Saga
5. Celestial Madonna Saga
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Post by Action Ace on Feb 19, 2015 0:23:01 GMT -5
My Top 10
1. The Ultimates
2. Enter the Vision (Avengers #57/58)
3. JLA/ Avengers
4. Once an Avenger (Vol. 3 #1-3)
5. Ultron Unlimited (Vol. 3 #19-23)
6. Serpent Crown Saga
7. Kree/Skrull War
8. The Ultimates 2
9. Korvac Saga
10. Kang Dynasty
HONORABLE MENTIONS
Young Avengers (first series)
Celestial Madonna Saga
Avengers/ Defenders War
Bride of Ultron (Avengers #161-162)
Count Nefaria (Avengers #164-166)
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Feb 19, 2015 0:53:32 GMT -5
I agree with coke & comics about the Thanos Saga being less related to the Avengers than the other choices. But what? No love for Celestial Madonna? Thats my favorite.
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Post by coke & comics on Feb 19, 2015 0:57:18 GMT -5
I agree with coke & comics about the Thanos Saga being less related to the Avengers than the other choices. But what? No love for Celestial Madonna? Thats my favorite. D'oh! I knew I was forgetting something. Editing my top 5 now. |
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Feb 19, 2015 6:28:12 GMT -5
Hmmm....this is a difficult one. Firstly, I'm not overly well read when it comes to the Avengers. I'm familiar with the first 40 issues and they are always a good read, but not necessarily amazing. The Kree-Skrull War I found to be a real slog, thanks to Roy Thomas' clunky and verbose dialogue and the JLA vs Avengers mini-series was terrible!
For the purposes of this poll, I'm gonna vote for the early Lee/Kirby issues. But, you know what, the Avengers-related comics that I've most enjoyed reading were the two Joe Casey penned Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes mini-series that Marvel put out in 2005 and 2007.
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Post by Cei-U! on Feb 19, 2015 8:24:38 GMT -5
This was a really tough call, as I like nearly all the story lines listed (except the Korvac story which bored the snot out of me then and now). I'm a huge fan of the Busiek/Perez team and the Kree-Skrull War blew my mind as a teenager but even so I ultimately had to choose the early Lee/Kirby issues, particularly #3-5. They may not be the "best" but, to my mind anyway, they are definitive.
Cei-U!
I summon the acorn from which the mighty oak grew!
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Post by fanboystranger on Feb 19, 2015 10:08:21 GMT -5
From the list, I'd have to go with Under Siege, but I would have liked to have seen Celestial Madonna on there, too. Plus, Lost in Space-Time from WCA. (Englehart is my favorite Avengers writer.)
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Post by fanboystranger on Feb 19, 2015 10:13:25 GMT -5
Under Siege definitely deserves great consideration, but does focus pretty narrowly on Captain America, rather than the team as a whole. I disagree with this. There is a large focus on Cap and the team is in disarray, but the story starts with a focus on Dane Whitman and Hercules, follows through with Herc's epic beating, has an entire issue featuring The Wasp and Scott Lang against the Absorbing Man, and then a lot of pulling the team together moments with Monica and Dr Druid.
Plus, there's the whole Moonstone conspiring against Zemo subplot.
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Post by Dizzy D on Feb 19, 2015 10:16:10 GMT -5
Hmmm....this is a difficult one. Firstly, I'm not overly well read when it comes to the Avengers. I'm familiar with the first 40 issues and they are always a good read, but not necessarily amazing. The Kree-Skrull War I found to be a real slog, thanks to Roy Thomas' clunky and verbose dialogue and the JLA vs Avengers mini-series was terrible! For the purposes of this poll, I'm gonna vote for the early Lee/Kirby issues. But, you know what, the Avengers-related comics that I've most enjoyed reading were the two Joe Casey penned Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes mini-series that Marvel put out in 2005 and 2007. Likewise for me: I'm not very wel read on Avengers (though I have read samplings of most runs over time.), but as a big Joe Casey fan I did read and love both mini's. Probably also the reason why I don't care at all either way about Bendis' Avengers and actually like Hickman's Avengers. Also not a fan of the Kree-Skrull war. JLA vs. Avengers has its moments, but leans a lot on "Hey look, it's [Character Y]" or "Hey look, it's a reference to [Story Z]" for me to even considerate it. From the list, I go with Under Siege. |
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