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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Dec 21, 2014 13:11:43 GMT -5
As I've said for years, Super-hero comics are inherently silly. And trying to make them super serious and work in the "real world" just highlights how silly they are. Now I like a bit of balance between the "oh so serious" and Batman fighting aliens...but that's me. That's one of the reasons I hate the Nolan Bat movies. They're every bit as silly as Batman '66 but desperately, pretentiously want to think they aren't. It also helps that Bale's a pretentious dick (from the few things I've been told or heard about him on sets) so him making Bruce Wayne a pretentious dick is just everyday acting for him. |
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Post by The Captain on Dec 21, 2014 13:21:01 GMT -5
Rick Jones! What the hell is so special about Rick Jones that apparently a superhero cannot lay eyes on him without wanting to make him his sidekick? My intense dislike for Rick Jones has been detailed elsewhere on this site, so I applaud you, my friend, for giving further voice to my feelings. |
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Post by tolworthy on Dec 21, 2014 15:02:49 GMT -5
Even the tiniest details bother me. So I gain pleasure from finding explanations. Now obviously they are still fiction: as far as I know Skrulls do not exist. But fiction can be internally consistent, and serves a useful purpose for exploring real world ideas, so harmony is maintained.
The down side of this (if it is a down side) is that finding explanations takes ages. For example, on my web site i have a rather long page covering the major objections to Fantastic Four issue 1, and I have barely scratched the surface. The only way I can have any hope of making sense of the comics is to restrict myself to a fixed number of issues of a single title.
To that extent I suppose I must agree with Slam Bradley: the only way to read superhero comics in any quantity is to accept the silliness.
Real life is like that. To understand life in a non-silly way you need to analyse it scientifically, and that means focusing on some tiny area. But life as a whole is so complex, so impossible to embrace all its details, thet the only way to do so is to say "life is crazy!"
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 15:24:29 GMT -5
Rick Jones! What the hell is so special about Rick Jones that apparently a superhero cannot lay eyes on him without wanting to make him his sidekick? My intense dislike for Rick Jones has been detailed elsewhere on this site, so I applaud you, my friend, for giving further voice to my feelings. Rick Jones should never, ever been created in the first place. I just can't stand him at all. That's one of the many reasons that I did not want to read an early Hulk comics - to some people that I know it wasn't a big deal - but this character always bothered me from the get go and I just wanted that character to go away. If Rick Jones hasn't been existed - I would enjoy Hulk Comics much, much better. Just my own observation here. |
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Post by fanboystranger on Dec 21, 2014 15:45:59 GMT -5
Rick Jones! What the hell is so special about Rick Jones that apparently a superhero cannot lay eyes on him without wanting to make him his sidekick? This is actually one of the things I love about Rick Jones. He's just an obvious jackass who stumbles into trouble all the time. Poor judgment is his superpower. That's why the ending of Avengers Forever is just about the most perfect Rick Jones moment-- "Hey, what are these things on my wrists? I know several scientists and mystics who could help me figure it out, but no, I'll just bang them together because I'm Rick Jones and that's what I do!" |
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Post by The Captain on Dec 21, 2014 16:48:35 GMT -5
Rick Jones! What the hell is so special about Rick Jones that apparently a superhero cannot lay eyes on him without wanting to make him his sidekick? This is actually one of the things I love about Rick Jones. He's just an obvious jackass who stumbles into trouble all the time. Poor judgment is his superpower. That's why the ending of Avengers Forever is just about the most perfect Rick Jones moment-- "Hey, what are these things on my wrists? I know several scientists and mystics who could help me figure it out, but no, I'll just bang them together because I'm Rick Jones and that's what I do!" And this is precisely why I hate him, because I cannot stand characters who are too stupid to live that succeed because of dumb luck in the absence of any actual talent or ability.
To each his own, I guess.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 19:11:42 GMT -5
1. It bugs the piss out of me that so many damn superheroes are blonde haired and blue-eyed because of the time the characters were created/whatever reason. At least DC gives some of their characters dark hair which is not often seen on a Marvel character (at least not most of their main ones). Tony Stark, Reed Richards, Ben Grimm, Namor(!), Cyclops, Beast, Peter Parker, Wolverine, Colossus, Nightcrawler, Wasp, Hercules, Dr Strange, Bruce Banner, Conan, Kull, Wonder Man, to name just a few |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 19:27:40 GMT -5
It always bothered me when people talk about Batman being a "normal guy without powers", and thus is more appealing or requires less suspension of disbelief than superpowered heroes. As if unparalleled fighting skills, PhD-level intellect and knowledge in multiple disciplines, enormous wealth, advanced preparation for every possible scenario that would be classified as delusional or paranoid in our world, and enough will power to fuel a dozen power rings is any less fantastical. Just a normal guy that kicked Superman's ass at the age of 65... |
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Post by fanboystranger on Dec 21, 2014 19:31:57 GMT -5
1. It bugs the piss out of me that so many damn superheroes are blonde haired and blue-eyed because of the time the characters were created/whatever reason. At least DC gives some of their characters dark hair which is not often seen on a Marvel character (at least not most of their main ones). More often that not, it had to do with the coloring process in the four-color days. When you had black hair, it was just ink like the linework, which meant any detail in the hair was covered up. That's also why there are so many red-haired characters. This changed as the separation process improved over the years, but when so many of these characters were created, it was generally the limitations in the color palette that lead to the default blond/red hair, blue eyed character rather than any cultural expectation of beauty.
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Post by Randle-El on Dec 22, 2014 0:51:25 GMT -5
Theres also the matter of the character profile you've outlined not being impossible. Superman defying gravity is impossible. Completely incompatible with physics, the core language of the universe. But a guy who is a martial arts master, a genius, a polymath, a billionaire, paranoid and exceptionally strong-willed is possible. Incredibly unlikely, but possible. Most of the things you've listed are all linked to each other. If someone is a genius and exceptionally strong-willed then odds are they'll be able to learn martial arts and multiple sciences and be able to acquire wealth. To say that Batman, as a person, is impossible is to say that genius, star athlete and business magnate are all mutually exclusive, which is of course untrue. I don't know if I'd say that being Batman is impossible, strictly speaking, for the reasons you cite. But to be all of those things together is so unlikely that it's doesn't make it much closer to the realm of possibilities than a man who can fly. It's sort of like saying Jupiter is a lot closer to Earth than Pluto. It's true, but it's still REALLY far away.  This whole discussion reminds me of an article I read a while back about a scientist who was also a lifelong martial artist who wrote an analysis of what it would take to actually become Batman. I think he mostly looked at it from a physical training perspective, but even from that angle alone, he pretty much concluded that it would be really, really hard, and even if you became Batman, you wouldn't last long because it would just be too hard on your body. www.scientificamerican.com/article/dark-knight-shift-why-bat/FTA: Wouldn't fighting Gotham's thugs every night take its toll?
The biggest unreal part of the way Batman's portrayed is the nature of his injuries. Most of the time, in the comics and in the movies, even when he wins, he usually winds up taking a pretty good beating. There's a real failure to show the cumulative effect of that. The next day he's shown out there doing the same thing again. He'd likely be quite tired and injured.
How would all those beat-downs have affected his longevity?
Keeping in mind that being Batman means never losing: If you look at consecutive events where professional fighters have to defend their titles—Muhammad Ali, George Foreman, Ultimate Fighters—the longest period you're going to find is about two to three years. That dovetails nicely with the average career for NFL running backs. It's about three years. (That's the statistic I got from the NFL Players Association Web site.) The point is, it's not very long. It's really hard to become Batman in the first place, and it's hard to maintain it when you get there. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Dec 22, 2014 0:55:38 GMT -5
Rick Jones got smacked around by the Hulk once or twice an issue. The poor kid clearly had brain damage from traumatic head injuries.
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Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
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Post by Crimebuster on Dec 22, 2014 1:26:18 GMT -5
I've always had a soft spot for Rick Jones, but that may be because I first was introduced to the character when he was appearing in ROM.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 1:46:18 GMT -5
Theres also the matter of the character profile you've outlined not being impossible. Superman defying gravity is impossible. Completely incompatible with physics, the core language of the universe. But a guy who is a martial arts master, a genius, a polymath, a billionaire, paranoid and exceptionally strong-willed is possible. Incredibly unlikely, but possible. Most of the things you've listed are all linked to each other. If someone is a genius and exceptionally strong-willed then odds are they'll be able to learn martial arts and multiple sciences and be able to acquire wealth. To say that Batman, as a person, is impossible is to say that genius, star athlete and business magnate are all mutually exclusive, which is of course untrue. I don't know if I'd say that being Batman is impossible, strictly speaking, for the reasons you cite. But to be all of those things together is so unlikely that it's doesn't make it much closer to the realm of possibilities than a man who can fly. It's sort of like saying Jupiter is a lot closer to Earth than Pluto. It's true, but it's still REALLY far away. This whole discussion reminds me of an article I read a while back about a scientist who was also a lifelong martial artist who wrote an analysis of what it would take to actually become Batman. I think he mostly looked at it from a physical training perspective, but even from that angle alone, he pretty much concluded that it would be really, really hard, and even if you became Batman, you wouldn't last long because it would just be too hard on your body. www.scientificamerican.com/article/dark-knight-shift-why-bat/FTA: Wouldn't fighting Gotham's thugs every night take its toll?
The biggest unreal part of the way Batman's portrayed is the nature of his injuries. Most of the time, in the comics and in the movies, even when he wins, he usually winds up taking a pretty good beating. There's a real failure to show the cumulative effect of that. The next day he's shown out there doing the same thing again. He'd likely be quite tired and injured.
How would all those beat-downs have affected his longevity?
Keeping in mind that being Batman means never losing: If you look at consecutive events where professional fighters have to defend their titles—Muhammad Ali, George Foreman, Ultimate Fighters—the longest period you're going to find is about two to three years. That dovetails nicely with the average career for NFL running backs. It's about three years. (That's the statistic I got from the NFL Players Association Web site.) The point is, it's not very long. It's really hard to become Batman in the first place, and it's hard to maintain it when you get there.Nobody ever having a lasting injury of any kind always bothered me. Knockout blowout fights with laser guns, laser vision, claws and teeth. Black eyes, missing teeth, being punched through a brick wall, out the top floor of a skyscraper, just to land in heavy traffic. And next issue you're fine. Oh sure, sometimes someone dies, but anyone who survives never loses an eye or a front tooth or gets a large scar. Sure, they're super heroes, but they don't all have a healing factor, because if they did what makes Wolverine's so special? |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Dec 22, 2014 6:00:14 GMT -5
Once again, I love characters like Batman and Cap, but what they represent are human characters, living extremely dangerous lives, where everything just so happens to go their way. (Be that time constraints or not dying from a random bullet.) I don't feel that BTAS or Pre-Crisis Batman are nearly as hard to accept as Bat-God, in terms of a human having the time and talent to become said crimefighter, so I should make that distinction. Neither bother me as a fan, since I've never had a problem accepting and thoroughly enjoying genre conceits, but I've always had a philosophical problem with the mantra "Anyone can be Batman!"
I think you guys bring up some great points about Rick Jones. The Hulk being my favorite Marvel character, I've read my fair share of Rick Jones in the comics. What strikes me the most is how long it took him to get with the times in terms of fashion. Maybe it was simply the fact that Sal Buscema (my favorite Hulk artist) didn't get out much, but it's hard to not notice that Rick Jones was wearing late 50's fashions well into the 70's. I'd get it if he didn't go off with Cap and the Avengers for a time; looking stylish for the Hulk would hardly be a priority. But you'd think he'd want to look nicer and more "with it" for all those hot superheroines he was rubbing shoulders with. (On a related note, older artists who just say "F it!" in terms of keeping up with modern fashions amuses me to no end. It's unintentionally hilarious stuff like this that makes me love classic comics.)
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Dec 22, 2014 7:00:54 GMT -5
Theres also the matter of the character profile you've outlined not being impossible. Superman defying gravity is impossible. Completely incompatible with physics, the core language of the universe. But a guy who is a martial arts master, a genius, a polymath, a billionaire, paranoid and exceptionally strong-willed is possible. Incredibly unlikely, but possible. Most of the things you've listed are all linked to each other. If someone is a genius and exceptionally strong-willed then odds are they'll be able to learn martial arts and multiple sciences and be able to acquire wealth. To say that Batman, as a person, is impossible is to say that genius, star athlete and business magnate are all mutually exclusive, which is of course untrue. I don't know if I'd say that being Batman is impossible, strictly speaking, for the reasons you cite. But to be all of those things together is so unlikely that it's doesn't make it much closer to the realm of possibilities than a man who can fly. It's sort of like saying Jupiter is a lot closer to Earth than Pluto. It's true, but it's still REALLY far away. This whole discussion reminds me of an article I read a while back about a scientist who was also a lifelong martial artist who wrote an analysis of what it would take to actually become Batman. I think he mostly looked at it from a physical training perspective, but even from that angle alone, he pretty much concluded that it would be really, really hard, and even if you became Batman, you wouldn't last long because it would just be too hard on your body. www.scientificamerican.com/article/dark-knight-shift-why-bat/FTA: Wouldn't fighting Gotham's thugs every night take its toll?
The biggest unreal part of the way Batman's portrayed is the nature of his injuries. Most of the time, in the comics and in the movies, even when he wins, he usually winds up taking a pretty good beating. There's a real failure to show the cumulative effect of that. The next day he's shown out there doing the same thing again. He'd likely be quite tired and injured.
How would all those beat-downs have affected his longevity?
Keeping in mind that being Batman means never losing: If you look at consecutive events where professional fighters have to defend their titles—Muhammad Ali, George Foreman, Ultimate Fighters—the longest period you're going to find is about two to three years. That dovetails nicely with the average career for NFL running backs. It's about three years. (That's the statistic I got from the NFL Players Association Web site.) The point is, it's not very long. It's really hard to become Batman in the first place, and it's hard to maintain it when you get there.The longevity issue is one of those concessions that has to be made for the story to work in its chosen format. Batman can never age and he can never suffer a permanent injury because eventually both of those things would creep up and Batman would be a geriatric mass of scar tissue. As far as the perfect storm of physical and mental attributes go, Batman is about as likely as Hannibal Lecter. Technically possible but extremely unlikely. However, I disagree with your Jupiter/Pluto analogy because the difference there is just a matter of time. It is just as possible to reach Pluto as it is to reach Jupiter, it just takes more time. But the core of the argument is that after you cut through all of the crap and all of the unlikelihoods and all of the conceits, in the fundamental difference between Batman and Superman is that Superman is impossible and Batman is not. When you get past the justifications and explanations and logic a Batman story is about a man like us while a Superman story is about an alien who defies the laws of the universe. The odds of man reaching the level of Batman might be 1-in-1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 but even the slimmest odds are lightyears away from Superman's status of "impossible." And I think that one simple fact is the most important part of his character. What interests me is that Tony Stark has the same quality yet it doesn't carry the same impact. Even though he is an ordinary man (and much more ordinary than Bruce Wayne, as he is "merely" a technological visionary) the fact that he relies on a piece of science fiction technology lowers his score (which is why I was so impressed by Iron Man 3 giving Tony so much action outside of the suit, but thats for another thread). |
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