shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 21, 2015 23:47:17 GMT -5
Because Icctrombone and I have derailed the Ninth Day of Classic Comics Christmas with this debate for long enough  Dave Sim made comic book history by writing and (largely) penciling his own independently created work for 300 consecutive issues over the course of 26 years. Now, 12 years after Sim said goodbye to Cerebus, we have two contenders in the running to be his successor. Both are still almost a decade away from claiming the title, but it's already clear that there's a controversy over exactly where the finish line is. Candidate #1: Erik Larsen Eligibility: Larsen has been writing and penciling Savage Dragon since 1993 and has produced 209 issues by this point. He penciled, inked, and colored each one. Candidate #2: Stan Sakai Eligibility: Sakai has been writing, penciling, inking, and lettering Usagi Yojimbo since 1984 and has produced 201 issues, not including three years worth of stories he did in one shots and anthology series prior to Usagi earning his own title in 1987. All were done by him personally. Argument in Larsen's favor: He has more issues done and, working at a monthly publication rate, he'll continue to stay ahead of Sakai (who produces 10 issues per year). He's also never taken a substantial break from producing the series. Argument in Sakai's favor: He's been doing this for nine more years than Larsen, only stopped (and lost the lead) in order to care for his ailing wife before losing her to a brain tumor, and otherwise had never taken a break from producing the series. Additionally, whereas Larsen began with money in his pocket, major fan support, and a wealthy publisher backing him, Sakai worked up from nothing and earned his long term success all on his own (a minor boost from the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles cartoon in 1988 aside). much like Dave Sim. Finally, if you add up all the work Sakai did on Usagi Yojimbo prior to getting his own title, and also include one-shots the three Space Usagi limited series, and the Senso limited series, Usagi actually has more than 209 issues done and may continue to keep the lead ahead of Savage Dragon, but that's not the number reflected on the newest issue of Usagi Yojimbo. So Larsen has the higher number and will continue to do so, but Sakai has been at it longer, did it without help in the same spirit as Dave Sim, and has turned out arguably more issues than Larsen but not under one continuous volume (though the publication schedule remained constant across publishers). So, assuming both creators make it to 300 issues, who should be seen as the rightful successor? EDIT: Folks have since pointed out (later in this discussion) that Fred Perry's Gold Digger and Jolly Blackburn's Knights of the Dinner Table are also contenders in this race. |
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Post by coke & comics on Dec 21, 2015 23:59:38 GMT -5
There will be multiple criterion.
The first to hit 300 wins something.
Sakai hit the 27 year mark first and wins something for being the longest-published of the sort in history.
The person who ultimately does the most issues wins something.
The person who ultimately puts in the most years wins something.
When I say "something", I usually mean "nothing in particular".
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2015 0:26:17 GMT -5
Has Larsen had the same complete creative team for the entire run (including colorists, letterers & inkers, etc.? Cerebus-every issue was completely by Sim and Gerhard I believe, and Usagi every issue was completely by Stan, without any variation. If Larsen hasn't kept the entire creative team in its entirety together for the whole series, that's a mark against him in my book. I don't think Larsen self-published the book either, one of the remarkable things about Sim's run was that he was not only doing the writing and art with Gerhard, but handling the entire business aspects of publishing the book (to the point where he also published a guide to self-publishing). Neither Stan nor Erik has had to do that as well as create the book, though Stan has had to do quite a bit of the business aspect as he moved from publisher to publisher, Erik had the mechanism of Image to help with that and the staff of Image to handle a lot of the grind of that side of the project even though he has held the title of publisher for a large chunk of the run.
Also hasn't Stan also lettered just about every Groo comic done by Sergio A. and Evanier in the same span he has been producing Usagi on top of all his duties on his own book? Larsen has done some side projects but nothing long term like that
Both runs are certainly impressive.
(Though the cynical side of me wonders if someone were industrious enough to calculate how many panels each produced in the course of the runs (Sim, Larsen & Sakai) what the tally and pecking order might be).
-M
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on Dec 22, 2015 0:57:33 GMT -5
Who sold the most?  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2015 1:06:35 GMT -5
Who sold the most? Who has more copies of issues sold to retailers but sitting unsold from retailer to customer in quarter bins and dollar bins?  -M |
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Post by hondobrode on Dec 22, 2015 1:29:11 GMT -5
Has Larsen had the same complete creative team for the entire run (including colorists, letterers & inkers, etc.? Cerebus-every issue was completely by Sim and Gerhard I believe, and Usagi every issue was completely by Stan, without any variation. If Larsen hasn't kept the entire creative team in its entirety together for the whole series, that's a mark against him in my book. I don't think Larsen self-published the book either, one of the remarkable things about Sim's run was that he was not only doing the writing and art with Gerhard, but handling the entire business aspects of publishing the book (to the point where he also published a guide to self-publishing). Neither Stan nor Erik has had to do that as well as create the book, though Stan has had to do quite a bit of the business aspect as he moved from publisher to publisher, Erik had the mechanism of Image to help with that and the staff of Image to handle a lot of the grind of that side of the project even though he has held the title of publisher for a large chunk of the run. Also hasn't Stan also lettered just about every Groo comic done by Sergio A. and Evanier in the same span he has been producing Usagi on top of all his duties on his own book? Larsen has done some side projects but nothing long term like that Both runs are certainly impressive. (Though the cynical side of me wonders if someone were industrious enough to calculate how many panels each produced in the course of the runs (Sim, Larsen & Sakai) what the tally and pecking order might be). -M Sorry, gotta walk this back a bit. Gerhard was not there at the very beginning. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2015 2:30:58 GMT -5
Has Larsen had the same complete creative team for the entire run (including colorists, letterers & inkers, etc.? Cerebus-every issue was completely by Sim and Gerhard I believe, and Usagi every issue was completely by Stan, without any variation. If Larsen hasn't kept the entire creative team in its entirety together for the whole series, that's a mark against him in my book. I don't think Larsen self-published the book either, one of the remarkable things about Sim's run was that he was not only doing the writing and art with Gerhard, but handling the entire business aspects of publishing the book (to the point where he also published a guide to self-publishing). Neither Stan nor Erik has had to do that as well as create the book, though Stan has had to do quite a bit of the business aspect as he moved from publisher to publisher, Erik had the mechanism of Image to help with that and the staff of Image to handle a lot of the grind of that side of the project even though he has held the title of publisher for a large chunk of the run. Also hasn't Stan also lettered just about every Groo comic done by Sergio A. and Evanier in the same span he has been producing Usagi on top of all his duties on his own book? Larsen has done some side projects but nothing long term like that Both runs are certainly impressive. (Though the cynical side of me wonders if someone were industrious enough to calculate how many panels each produced in the course of the runs (Sim, Larsen & Sakai) what the tally and pecking order might be). -M Sorry, gotta walk this back a bit. Gerhard was not there at the very beginning. ok my bad, I thought he was. Then I will retract the question, but then handling the business aspect is all the more impressive to launch the book and company. -M |
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on Dec 22, 2015 3:01:57 GMT -5
Who sold the most? Who has more copies of issues sold to retailers but sitting unsold from retailer to customer in quarter bins and dollar bins? -M Well I walked into that one, but dial the snark back a bit mate, was just trying to offer a light comment, Hence the smiley face. I have no agenda in this discussion, well actually I might, cos I prefer Cerebus, and Dave got there first, so the whole point is moot...
As an aside, I thought you Yanks liked free Enterprise and all that, admire the guy who makes it, who follows his dream etc...yet all we see here(well mainly) is hate for the Image 7. Yet Larsen(and pals) took their ideas and sold them to folks who wanted them, and now all anyone wants to do is crap on them.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2015 3:21:25 GMT -5
Who has more copies of issues sold to retailers but sitting unsold from retailer to customer in quarter bins and dollar bins? -M Well I walked into that one, but dial the snark back a bit mate, was just trying to offer a light comment, Hence the smiley face. I have no agenda in this discussion, well actually I might, cos I prefer Cerebus, and Dave got there first, so the whole point is moot...
As an aside, I thought you Yanks liked free Enterprise and all that, admire the guy who makes it, who follows his dream etc...yet all we see here(well mainly) is hate for the Image 7. Yet Larsen(and pals) took their ideas and sold them to folks who wanted them, and now all anyone wants to do is crap on them.
Added a smiley, didn't mean for it to come out so snarky, apologies. As for the Image 7, there's a lot of lack of respect because many of them got to the top and then perpetuated the same behavior they had so vocally criticized when they were at the bottom making it not so much they were chasing a dream of creative freedom but greedy and bitter they weren't in charge when they were the underlings. They crapped on a lot of people on the way up, so their getting crap now is just a little karmic payback in the eyes of many. The Image of today is certainly not the Image of the 90s, either in terms of quality of content or quality of treatment of creators outside the Image core boys. -M |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 22, 2015 5:48:37 GMT -5
Sorry, gotta walk this back a bit. Gerhard was not there at the very beginning. ok my bad, I thought he was. Then I will retract the question, but then handling the business aspect is all the more impressive to launch the book and company. -M While Sakai came up from nothing in the comic industry, it wouldn't be fair to suggest that he handled the business aspect, really. He was just very good at ingratiating himself to various editors and publishers, beginning super small with Steve Gallacci, moving up to Fantagraphics, earning the attention of Eastman and Laird, and then shifting gears by moving over to Dark Horse. He never self-published. In some respects, that made his journey easier, but in others, well, that's why he's probably done more than 209 issues of Usagi but the current volume is only at #147. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 22, 2015 5:51:17 GMT -5
I will add this tidbit -- Larsen does his own coloring, but Sakai does his own lettering (Usagi has been b/w for most of its tenure).
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Post by Icctrombone on Dec 22, 2015 6:01:42 GMT -5
As Samuel Jackson said in Pulp Fiction, " Allow me to retort"
Larsen , although one of the Image 7 has continued to produce the book without selling out or getting kicked out of image. He was the Publisher for a few years, which certainly must have taken precious work hours away from him that he could have used towards producing more books or staying on schedule. In his 209 issue run ( to date) He has produced , in the 209 issue run, four double sized issues, one 64 page issue, one 80 page issue and four 100 page issues. He has also released a comic with the regular size dimensions and in digest form. I will grant you that the extra sized issues he had inkers aiding him in the back up stories, but still that's a lot of pages. Also, during his 22 year run many mini series related to Savage Dragon have been written by him and drawn by others.
As for the team , he has written pencilled and inked all his 209. Sorry Dave Sim, he didn't need an inker. I will admit to total ignorance for Sakai and his work but I am leaning to giving the upper hand to someone who also has written and pencilled other books , at the same time, as he was doing his SD run. For a time he wrote Aquaman and penciled and co wrote Defenders and he wrote and penciled Supreme for about 6 issues.
That's a lot of work.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 22, 2015 6:05:39 GMT -5
but I am leaning to giving the upper hand to someone who also has written and pencilled other books , at the same time, Sakai has done a LOT of short Usagi stories for other publications and also personally sketches and signs the first page of every hardcover copy of every Usagi trade ever produced (one is released each year), but more than that, he has lettered every issue of Groo that has ever seen publication and also letters the daily Amazing Spider-Man newspaper strip. He also penciled and inked the 47 Ronin comic book series. Once again, what he does is difficult to compare to what Larsen does, but they both measure up in this respect. And it's good to see you finally found the thread |
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Post by Icctrombone on Dec 22, 2015 6:08:43 GMT -5
You have to concede that Penciling takes up more creativity and time than lettering. Larsen is slated to begin regularly penciling Spawn in a few months as well as still producing SD.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 22, 2015 6:10:37 GMT -5
You have to concede that Penciling takes up more creativity and time than lettering. I wouldn't pretend to know. However, having a daily newspaper strip depend upon your contribution, regardless of whether it takes two hours or six, is still one hell of a demand to keep up with for years on end. |
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