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Post by badwolf on Dec 1, 2014 16:09:00 GMT -5
I would have loved to see Peter handling fatherhood and its little indignities: stains of baby puke on his spider-suit, his having to use his web-shooters in a diaper emergency, his rocking the baby to sleep dangling from a thread over NYC… That's exactly what I don't want to see! Using his webbing to shut up a crying baby would be funny, though. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Dec 1, 2014 16:12:27 GMT -5
I would have loved to see Peter handling fatherhood and its little indignities: stains of baby puke on his spider-suit, his having to use his web-shooters in a diaper emergency, his rocking the baby to sleep dangling from a thread over NYC… That's exactly what I don't want to see! Using his webbing to shut up a crying baby would be funny, though. Probably criminal in most states, too... |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2014 16:15:23 GMT -5
I don't agree. I think you can tell an infinite number of stories while maintaining the essence of the character. If Peter Parker marries a supermodel, he's not the unlucky everyman we all knew and loved (and related to.) Superman and Lois? Well, that's just not believable, for reasons Larry Niven went into. And yeah, it made him boring. If you have a loner character marry and have kids then you're going to have even more predictable stories than you would have had without. Bruce, why do you have to go out every night and risk your life...Bruce, we never spend any time together...Bruce, I can't take this obsession any more... Give me the status quo of singledom anyday. Never mind that superheroes are a danger to their family; look what happened to Buddy's. Well if there only "seven stories" and you have to limit outcomes to maintain status quo, I am not sure how you achieve that infinite number there. Peter is an everyman sure, but part of his story is growing up, changing, and adapting to the things like brings to him, taking responsibility for his actions, and part of that process is growing up and having kids. The grist for conflict there is what is the greater responsibility-being a hero, being a husband or being a father? If he's single carefree everyman, we know he will go save the day, we know he will get Aunt May's meds in time, etc. etc. no matter what plot to twist is there, the outcome is the same, there is no consequence to the character from the plot's conflict and it's not a story, it's a plot exercise. What's more essential to a good Spider-Men story-Peter being an everyman or Peter struggling to live up to the ideal of with great power comes great responsibility? If Bruce is involved the grist becomes can he maintain the mission and live his life? Did Bruce Wayne die with his parents that night or can Bruce carry on the legacy of the Waynes for Gotham beyond avenging their death and the war of crime...reducing/limiting a relationship for him to a tired trope of the shrill needy significant other who whines about him being Batman is a limit in the storyteller's ability and imagination, not a handicap of the story potential of the involved Batman/Bruce Wayne. It's a tired regurgitated soap opera plot that lacks story and character... -M |
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Post by badwolf on Dec 1, 2014 16:18:24 GMT -5
Seven stories?
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Post by badwolf on Dec 1, 2014 16:19:38 GMT -5
That's exactly what I don't want to see! Using his webbing to shut up a crying baby would be funny, though. Probably criminal in most states, too... I guess there's our story. Spider-Man on trial for webbing a toddler. Matt Murdock could defend him. Aunt May could be a witness and talk about that time she found sticky stuff under his bed. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Dec 1, 2014 16:22:32 GMT -5
Aunt May could be a witness and talk about that time she found sticky stuff under his bed. Criminy! Do you know how hard it is to clean coffee from a computer screen?  |
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Post by badwolf on Dec 1, 2014 16:24:56 GMT -5
I didn't, but now I do.
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Post by The Captain on Dec 1, 2014 16:56:08 GMT -5
Aunt May could be a witness and talk about that time she found sticky stuff under his bed. Criminy! Do you know how hard it is to clean coffee from a computer screen? Not as difficult as it is to clean sticky stuff off of one. Or so I've been told. By a friend. Yeah, that's it; a friend told me... |
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on Dec 1, 2014 17:00:23 GMT -5
Byrne basically destroyed Scarlet Witch and Vision making them both toxic characters for the longest time, and pretty much showed he was no longer in touch with what worked in mainstream comics letting his ego get in the way of what was good mainstream storytelling. His art on that book was the first time it appeared to be a parody of his classic style, his dialogue was horrible and his plots were one bad idea after another leading him to get fired off the book...and it taking years to rehabilitate the damage he had done to some characters, and some (like Vision) never really recovered. It is quite possibly the worst run on Avengers ever until Liefeld took over on Heroes Reborn. I find it less palatable than the Crossing and that is the epitome of bad runs in my book, and even Kang puppet traitor Tony Stark becoming Teen Tony did less lasting damage to characters than Byrne's run did to the characters he malligned. -M So why doesnt the editor of the time shoulder the blame for Byrnes excesses ? He can write anything, but it still needs to get approved. He wasnt in the league of Kirby and able demand editorial control of his work was he ? I know that this is a case much like sports, we only remember the winner, not how they got there. However, in all fairness, how does Byrne get ALL the blame when he had bosses who did nothing until it was too late ? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2014 17:19:27 GMT -5
Sir Arthur Thomas Quiller Couch's list is the foundation of a lot of literary criticism and storytelling theory. His list of the 7 stories (or 7 conflicts) recently (2006ish) Christopher Booker tried to offer an updated list to fit modern sensibilities of storytelling, but his revamp hasn't stood the test of time that Quiller Couch's has. Booker's list: Basically any story when reduced to the core of its plot fits into one of the 7 categories of Quiller Couch's list. The rest is in the exectution and how it affects/interacts with the character and causes growth and change to the character. That is the nucleus of story, and without it you just have plot. -M |
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Post by Icctrombone on Dec 1, 2014 17:31:58 GMT -5
I guess Green Lantern and Hank Pym fall under the category of properties that were altered just to be reset almost to their original state.
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Post by Paradox on Dec 2, 2014 9:50:24 GMT -5
Byrne basically destroyed Scarlet Witch and Vision making them both toxic characters for the longest time, and pretty much showed he was no longer in touch with what worked in mainstream comics letting his ego get in the way of what was good mainstream storytelling. His art on that book was the first time it appeared to be a parody of his classic style, his dialogue was horrible and his plots were one bad idea after another leading him to get fired off the book...and it taking years to rehabilitate the damage he had done to some characters, and some (like Vision) never really recovered. It is quite possibly the worst run on Avengers ever until Liefeld took over on Heroes Reborn. I find it less palatable than the Crossing and that is the epitome of bad runs in my book, and even Kang puppet traitor Tony Stark becoming Teen Tony did less lasting damage to characters than Byrne's run did to the characters he malligned. -M I have such a weird relationship with that era's Byrne. I really liked his stories and what he was doing in a vacuum (particularly in WCA/AWC), and absolutely despised the "repercussions" in the wider view and the long run. Perfect for me would have been to tell those stories and then put most of it back to where it was before right after (instead of YEARS and YEARS later). |
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Post by Paradox on Dec 2, 2014 9:54:50 GMT -5
Byrne basically destroyed Scarlet Witch and Vision making them both toxic characters for the longest time, and pretty much showed he was no longer in touch with what worked in mainstream comics letting his ego get in the way of what was good mainstream storytelling. His art on that book was the first time it appeared to be a parody of his classic style, his dialogue was horrible and his plots were one bad idea after another leading him to get fired off the book...and it taking years to rehabilitate the damage he had done to some characters, and some (like Vision) never really recovered. It is quite possibly the worst run on Avengers ever until Liefeld took over on Heroes Reborn. I find it less palatable than the Crossing and that is the epitome of bad runs in my book, and even Kang puppet traitor Tony Stark becoming Teen Tony did less lasting damage to characters than Byrne's run did to the characters he malligned. -M So why doesnt the editor of the time shoulder the blame for Byrnes excesses ? He can write anything, but it still needs to get approved. He wasnt in the league of Kirby and able demand editorial control of his work was he ? At the time, I think he THOUGHT he was. Whenever they did try to rein him in, he'd threaten to pack up his toys and go home (excepting the times when he DID do exactly that). |
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Post by Pharozonk on Dec 2, 2014 17:51:33 GMT -5
Enjoyable for a little while, but did WAY too much damage to the team in the long run....  |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Dec 2, 2014 18:00:30 GMT -5
That's a weird looking legion.
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