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Post by gothos on Nov 20, 2014 18:03:23 GMT -5
Perhaps instead of an open-ended political discussion thread, it might be more constructive to have a proposed topic or issue of the day/week/month or other fixed length of time. Folks could chime in with various viewpoints subject to the normal rules of the board, and then once the time has expired or the horse has been sufficiently beaten, debate would be closed and we'd move on to the next topic. I think I suggested something similar in Meanwhile, so I'd be up for it. The time-expiration thing might make posters cut to the bone and not get off on side-tracks. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Nov 20, 2014 20:51:09 GMT -5
I had originally entertained the possibility of doing just that, but thought it might be too constrictive but if you guys are open to that I say make it so.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,388
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Post by shaxper on Nov 20, 2014 20:56:10 GMT -5
Not that I plan to participate much in this thread, but enforcing rules like this is what created problems on other boards. Sometimes motives need to be questioned. Sometimes precisely what a poster is saying is less significant to the issue at hand than the misogyny or racism barely veiled by their words and views. As someone who advanced the possibility for such a thread, I think it's possible to discuss issues while avoiding personal confrontations. The only way to do so, though, would be-- in addition to Shaxper's rules-- to concentrate on each statement as a proposition that is or isn't supported by someone's experience. Now, the admission that an opinion-- let us say that it is an unpopular opinion on this board-- has some grounds in experience does not admit that the opinion represents anyone else's experience. It's just an admission that nothing comes out of nothing. Shaxper says, argue particularities. Okay, here's my example of one such: Poster A says that all scenes with the crows in DUMBO are racist. Poster B takes the opposite position. Do either one convert to the other to his POV? Probably not. But is it possible to exchange experiences on this level without getting into personalities, or, perhaps just as bad, extrapolating from particulars to generalities? I think it's theoretically possible, but I must admit, it was only rarely accomplished, even partly, on the old CBR board. On a side-note, I contemplated making a post on CBR entitled, "'If this goes on' is always wrong." This too might have dealt with the downside of abstracting from the particular to the general. Still not sure if I'll take the trouble. To be clear, these are not my rules, though I am not opposed to them. ThwhtGuardian was willing to sponsor this reboot and has done all the hard work to create these rules himself as well as take responsibility for nurturing this thread. You guys owe him a big thank you for being passionate enough about this thread to put such dedication and commitment into it. |
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Post by gothos on Nov 21, 2014 17:33:57 GMT -5
Gotcha, I must have lost track of who said what.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Dec 1, 2014 15:37:12 GMT -5
Alright, several members have suggested a set topic so lets give it a try.
The Supreme Court is weighing the free-speech rights of people who use violent or threatening language on Facebook and other social media. The justices will hear arguments Monday in the case of a man who was sentenced to nearly four years in prison for posting very specific and graphically violent rap lyrics on Facebook about killing his estranged wife, shooting up a kindergarten class and attacking an FBI agent.
Anthony Elonis of Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, says he was just venting his anger over a broken marriage and never meant to threaten anyone.
You guys are now members of the Supreme Court, the case is up to you decide, do you believe that this violates the Freedom of Speech or must we take certain measures to ensure the protection of everyday citizens?
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Post by gothos on Dec 2, 2014 17:27:41 GMT -5
The only reason I would restrict Freedom of Speech in such cases would be if the poster were anonymous, which I take it is not the case with Mr. Elonis.
Obviously news of anonymous posters and letter-writers has recently been much in the news in the cases of both Anita Sarkeesian and Janelle (remember her, a little bit?) Asselin. Threats from anonymous parties should be regarded by the law as potentially real threats.
But in cases where the poster of violent fantasies has allowed his identity to be known by all who inquire, wherein lies the real-life threat?
I'm sure it does happen, that an individual makes verbal threats and then acts on them. But the opposite is more common: people saying shit in anger but never acting on it. If legal action against verbal threats is called for, a sentence of four years for a threat is entirely out of line.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2014 17:48:50 GMT -5
The sentence seems harsh, but a scorned lover writing a song about how he's going to kill his ex deserves some looking into by the police I'd think.
If a kid saying he's going to shoot up a school gets a reaction from law enforcement, so should a husband saying he's going to kill his wife. Pretty sure that actually happens more often than school shootings, as common as school shootings have become.
If the statement were on her answering machine instead of a record, what would have been the result?
But then again, how many rappers would be in prison today if this were applied to everyone who threatened to kill someone in a song?
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Dec 2, 2014 18:12:59 GMT -5
Oh yeah, oh yeah
Oh yeah, oh yeah
Imagine I'm in love with you
It's easy 'cause I know
I've imagined I'm in love with you
Many, many many times before
It's not like me to pretend
But I'll get you, I'll get you in the end
Yes, I will, I'll get you in the end
Oh yeah, oh yeah
I think about you night and day
I need you and it's true
When I think about you I can say
I'm never, never never never blue
So I'm telling you, my friend
That I'll get you, I'll get you in the end
Yes, I will, I'll get you in the end
Oh yeah, oh yeah
Well, there's gonna be a time
When I'm gonna change your mind
So you might as well resign yourself to me
Oh yeah
Imagine I'm in love with you
It's easy 'cause I know
I've imagined I'm in love with you
Many, many many times before
It's not like me to pretend
But I'll get you, I'll get you in the end
Yes, I will, I'll get you in the end
Oh yeah, oh yeah
Oh yeah, oh yeah
Oh yeah
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Songwriters
LENNON, JOHN / MCCARTNEY, PAUL
Read more: Beatles - I'll Get You Lyrics | MetroLyrics
John Lennon and Paul McCartney should have been brought in for questioning back in 1964
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2014 18:22:23 GMT -5
Seems less specific and explicit. No "I'm going to kill you, Felicia!"
And while I do think freedom of speech is important, I also think the ex wife should have freedom from death threats.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Dec 2, 2014 20:16:09 GMT -5
Well somebody better tell the authorities about this guy Marshall Mathers who actually wrote, produced and recorded a song about killing his ex, Kim, her boyfriend and his stepson, instead of just posting someone else's word. Maybe like Mathers he'd got sued and not put in jail.
I'm not taking Mathers side as Kim did attempt suicide on hearing his performance of the song at a concert. Just saying if this man can make millions off hate and violence how is this guy in jail?
Edit: May I make a suggestion? For those making the initial post in a new topic/conversation, could we provide links to the story so that those that are unfamiliar with it can read up on it and still weigh in?
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Post by thwhtguardian on Dec 2, 2014 20:42:51 GMT -5
Well somebody better tell the authorities about this guy Marshall Mathers who actually wrote, produced and recorded a song about killing his ex, Kim, her boyfriend and his stepson, instead of just posting someone else's word. Maybe like Mathers he'd got sued and not put in jail. I'm not taking Mathers side as Kim did attempt suicide on hearing his performance of the song at a concert. Just saying if this man can make millions off hate and violence how is this guy in jail? Edit: May I make a suggestion? For those making the initial post in a new topic/conversation, could we provide links to the story so that those that are unfamiliar with it can read up on it and still weigh in? From the NPR article: |
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Post by berkley on Dec 2, 2014 22:01:26 GMT -5
The sentence seems harsh, but a scorned lover writing a song about how he's going to kill his ex deserves some looking into by the police I'd think. If a kid saying he's going to shoot up a school gets a reaction from law enforcement, so should a husband saying he's going to kill his wife. Pretty sure that actually happens more often than school shootings, as common as school shootings have become. If the statement were on her answering machine instead of a record, what would have been the result? But then again, how many rappers would be in prison today if this were applied to everyone who threatened to kill someone in a song? I agree, you have to look at the context. I think we can accept a rap artist writing a song about someone killing a cop, just as we can accept Johnny Cash singing about how he "shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die", as long as its clear that this is a story, not a deliberate inciting of people to go out and do the things the character in the song does. But if Johnny Cash had a website where he talked about how he'd like to kill someone just to watch them die, then his song would have to be looked at in a totally different light. It seems clear that the guy in this news-story was uttering threats against his estranged-wife and law enforcement has to look at that. Freedom of speech doesn't give me the right to harass someone and tell them I'm going to kill them, or even to publicly fantasize about killing or doing harm to them. |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Dec 2, 2014 23:07:15 GMT -5
RUN FOR YOUR LIFE
Well I'd rather see you dead, little girl
Than to be with another man
You better keep your head, little girl
Or I won't know where I am
You better run for your life if you can, little girl
Hide your head in the sand little girl
Catch you with another man
That's the end, little girl
Well I know that I'm a wicked guy
And I was born with a jealous mind
And I can't spend my whole life
Trying just to make you toe the line
You better run for your life if you can, little girl
Hide your head in the sand little girl
Catch you with another man
That's the end, little girl
Let this be a sermon
I mean everything I've said
Baby, I'm determined
And I'd rather see you dead
You better run for your life if you can, little girl
Hide your head in the sand little girl
I catch you with another man
That's the end, little girl
I'd rather see you dead, little girl
Than to be with another man
You better keep your head, little girl
Or you won't know where I am
You better run for your life if you can, little girl
Hide your head in the sand little girl
Catch you with another man
That's the end, little girl
Na, na, na
Na, na, na
Na, na, na
Na, na, na
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Songwriters
LENNON, JOHN / MCCARTNEY, PAUL
Read more: Beatles - Run For Your Life Lyrics | MetroLyrics
A short time later,here's John Lennon again threatening the life of his girlfriend in public. He's now a serial threatener. What with the long hair and the tight pants, I'd lock this menace to society away for good. He had a chance to reform. What, he thinks he's bigger than Jesus?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2014 4:32:41 GMT -5
Well somebody better tell the authorities about this guy Marshall Mathers who actually wrote, produced and recorded a song about killing his ex, Kim, her boyfriend and his stepson, instead of just posting someone else's word. Maybe like Mathers he'd got sued and not put in jail. I'm not taking Mathers side as Kim did attempt suicide on hearing his performance of the song at a concert. Just saying if this man can make millions off hate and violence how is this guy in jail? Edit: May I make a suggestion? For those making the initial post in a new topic/conversation, could we provide links to the story so that those that are unfamiliar with it can read up on it and still weigh in? I never liked that he was putting that on an album either. But I still think four years in prison is steep. I don't know what I think the correct response is, but ignoring it isn't what I think should be done. At the very least I'd say a restraining order and possibly probation/seizure of weapons. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2014 4:34:20 GMT -5
RUN FOR YOUR LIFEWell I'd rather see you dead, little girl Than to be with another man You better keep your head, little girl Or I won't know where I am You better run for your life if you can, little girl Hide your head in the sand little girl Catch you with another man That's the end, little girl Well I know that I'm a wicked guy And I was born with a jealous mind And I can't spend my whole life Trying just to make you toe the line You better run for your life if you can, little girl Hide your head in the sand little girl Catch you with another man That's the end, little girl Let this be a sermon I mean everything I've said Baby, I'm determined And I'd rather see you dead You better run for your life if you can, little girl Hide your head in the sand little girl I catch you with another man That's the end, little girl I'd rather see you dead, little girl Than to be with another man You better keep your head, little girl Or you won't know where I am You better run for your life if you can, little girl Hide your head in the sand little girl Catch you with another man That's the end, little girl Na, na, na Na, na, na Na, na, na Na, na, na ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Songwriters LENNON, JOHN / MCCARTNEY, PAUL Read more: Beatles - Run For Your Life Lyrics | MetroLyrics A short time later,here's John Lennon again threatening the life of his girlfriend in public. He's now a serial threatener. What with the long hair and the tight pants, I'd lock this menace to society away for good. He had a chance to reform. What, he thinks he's bigger than Jesus? Again, her name isn't stated in the song. This isn't "Sally, I'm going to kill you." There is a line that Slim Shady crossed that so far, I'm not seeing the Beatles crossing. |
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