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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2023 11:02:48 GMT -5
The year was 1999, and the times were a-changin'. The Internet had fully emerged into mainstream culture, and technology dominance in our society would only acclerate from there. Cyberpunk (ala William Gibson's mid-80's Neuromancer) would fully bloom this year perhaps most visibly with the release of the Matrix. But there was a bigger "aesthetic" you could sense. Anime/manga inspired art styles, electronica invading the music scene...a new world was emerging, and like any "new world", it had been building for some time. The end of the 90's was perhaps the tipping point. The 90's was in general a fantastic time for animation, and both DC and Marvel had significant successes during that era. Arguably DC "won" overall with the Dini/Timm-verse or early "DCAU" as it were. Batman TAS is perhaps the most hallowed classic superhero animation series of all time, and for good reason. During the 90's, after a few seasons of the original series, a very cool "deco stylized" additional season followed and of course the quite excellent Superman series. DC favored a more "serious" style of storytelling relatively speaking compared to the superhero fare that had preceded it in decades past, and the animation could finally be taken as seriously as the mainstream comics. And while Marvel kept things a little more colorful and cartoony to an extent, they still seemed to capture a "next level" vibe often adapting classic comic book material into very respectable forms, the X-Men series perhaps being the highlight. One might argue some of their other series were a little more mixed in quality, but I would say Spider-Man for the most part was also quite well done. What both DC and Marvel had in common during the 90's, though, was still some semblance of "tradition" from prior eras. Both canons were still rooted in well-established lore for the most part, with occasional breakout moments like the introduction of Harley Quinn in Batman. Visually, DC's animation had a very stylish "retro-modern" thing going on, but still very accessible to people who grew up on earlier cartoons. Marvel still had a lot of nods to 80's traditional action animation, but a little more polished in cases again like X-Men. Even the theme music tended to pull from earlier forms, like Batman leveraging the Danny Elfman theme from the preceding live action movie, or the rock style of Spider-Man with Joe Perry from Aerosmith adding some guitar lead work. At the end of the 90's, Batman's series was wrapping up, Superman would wrap up in 2000. The Justice League series was getting planned next. But then we got something most unexpected at the very start of 1999: Batman Beyond. What the heck was this? Techno music theme? Non-comic book teen character taking the lead? Dystopian looking cyberpunk? Did we even want this? Similarly, Spider-Man's animated series had wrapped up, and later in 1999, we got Spider-Man Unlimited. Again, we have electronic music in the theme, Spidey is technically still Peter but in a new and technologically advanced costume, he's on another planet, and a more heavily stylized visual with some "avant-garde" feeling elements like references to comic book frames and panel captions. Was this a clever "fresh take", or an ill-advised attempt to try to be "cool"? My goal in this thread is not to truly pick a winner between the two. Neither revolutionlized the Batman or Spider-Man properties overall, though Batman Beyond I think did get more "cult classic" respect and was successful enough to get revisited at times both in animated and comic book form. Spider-Man Unlimited largely came and went, though just this year he did make a small reappearance in the Across the Spider-Verse movie! No, my purpose for this thread is simply because I remember living through this time, not thinking I wanted EITHER series, and ended up enjoying both. The "versus" aspect of this will be more a contrast of each series, and what I found interesting about both. If anyone else happens to be interested in this topic, please feel free to add any comments!   |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2023 12:35:00 GMT -5
I'll be alternating my posts between the two series, but let's start with Batman Beyond. For those not familiar with or needing a little refresh, the basic premise is that we are now in the year 2039 and Bruce is still alive and in his 70's, but not in the best of health including heart issues. He's been retired from crime-fighting for 20 years at this point (a poignant scene early on shows when and why he made the decision to quit). The setting is "Neo-Gotham" and everything is, well, "futuristic". A series of events, including tragedy, puts 16 year-old Terry McGinnis in the company of Bruce. The death of Terry's father at the hands of the "Jokerz" gang, along with Terry's discovery of the Batcave and Bruce's history, eventually leads to Bruce reluctantly realizing a "Batman" is still needed. He offers Terry the role including the technologically advanced suit McGinnis ends up wearing. Terry and Bruce pictured below:  Long story short, crime is more of a problem than ever, with the aforementioned cyberpunk-ish setting of a somewhat bleak society dealing with technology ramifications. And to me, one of the most interesting aspects of the series..."old man Wayne". Yes, Terry takes the action lead, and there are some serious storylines about his personal life and social world he lives in (it's not all "club dancing" in the evening as the opening credits briefly show). But Bruce is not merely some occasional background player who shows up from time to time as a nod to the old series. This show is premised on him resuming his war on crime, but out of necessity needing a proxy to perform the physical side of the job. He cannot take on Terry as the "new Robin", he must equip him to BE Batman, though with considerable tactical and strategic support from the sidelines/command operations. Another key point of interest for me with the series: Barbara Gordon is still around, but no longer Batgirl. She is now the Police Commissioner, and this makes for a lot of interesting plot dynamics as Barbara is now working (and outright leading) within the "system" and Bruce is again outside of it. More on Barbara in a future post, but again, I think this was a great concept (and logical progression of the character) having her now in this role. Back on Bruce though, I think the exploration of what would happen to his character in old age, surviving the perils of his earlier crimefighting years but not unscathed, makes for intelligent and compelling storytelling. He can be difficult with Terry, just as McGinnis can often be young and brash, and so you have that dynamic which is more of the predictable element of the series. But Terry does grow over time, and while I can't say he ever becomes a favorite for me, the "relationship" aspect between the two is interesting to follow. There are even a few situations where Bruce needs to briefly engage in physical action, and it's handled well portraying diminshed capabilities and consequences to the activity, but he WAS still the Batman and can muster a short burst of the old form when a situation is absolutely dire. And you can't help but cheer for him during those situations even though you immediately see the cost to his health. That said though, Terry is intended as the "lead" character, and the episodes do follow his life at home, in school, with friends, romance, etc. I would be remiss not to mention the late, great Kevin Conroy resuming his role as the voice of Bruce, a huge plus for the series as well of course! |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Sept 16, 2023 16:38:13 GMT -5
I really enjoyed both cartoons but Beyond was definitely on another level in terms of storytelling.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2023 18:44:33 GMT -5
I really enjoyed both cartoons but Beyond was definitely on another level in terms of storytelling. I agree, Batman Beyond to me often had an impressive depth of storytelling, in certain ways I think it was much more ambitious than Spider-Man Unlimited in that regard. That said, Spider-Man is actually the series I prefer more between the two for reasons I'll get into in later posts, but if I had to objectively recommend one as more "essential viewing" to others, it would go to Batman. Again, I think it was a very intelligent series overall. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2023 8:01:55 GMT -5
So let's turn to Spider-Man Unlimited. Unlike Batman Beyond, this is still present day Spidey and the series 2-part opener sets the stage. The premise of the show is that there is another planet in Earth's orbit on the other side of the Sun ("Counter-Earth") that's been discovered and astronaut John Jameson is headed there on an exploratory mission. But before the rocket can take off, Venom and Carnage try to board it, Spider-Man tries to stop them but everything goes wrong and they lose contact with Jameson who is off in space. Spidey gets blamed of course. Much later on, they get a distress signal from Jameson and Peter is determined to go rescue him. Everything kind of goes "sci-fi" from here on. To prepare for the mission, he puts together a new technology enhanced suit with borrowed nanotechnology from Reed Richards. Again, this is the late 90's and nanotech was the hot topic, kind of like how virtual reality in the early 90's was the big deal but decades later we're still waiting for Ready Player One life. Or how AI is now the big deal, but all it can really do is funny images and bad customer service. Now let's pause here with a comparison point to Batman Beyond since both are tech equipped. Spider-Man is already a meta-human obviously, so his suit just complements that with built-in web shooters, sonic weaponry (since Venom and Carnage are presumed where Jameson is and still dangerous), and a stealth mode. That last feature is one that is shared with Terry's Batsuit which has a similar "cloaking" feature. But since Batman is a regular human, the enhanced Batsuit is a bit more Iron Man like tech providing enhanced strength, flight, weaponry/gadgets, etc. Aesthetically, Batman Beyond opts for a sleek and somewhat minimalist all black with just the red chest emblem (though the wings extended give an extra spash of red as well per below). Spidey's suit is more colorful and busy, I think it's a fun variant and it was a playable version in the excellent Spider-Man 2000 game!  Back on story, Spidey is able to grab a ship (after convincing Nick Fury to let him go after Jameson) and take a solo flight to Counter-Earth. He radios back to Earth as he's leaving letting everyone know it's him in the ship, and then also voices himself as Peter saying he's "also along for the ride to document everything" which conveniently sets up how both Spider-Man and Peter will be missing on Earth. And he makes it there, but Counter-Earth is not what he expects. Remember the High Evolutionary? Yeah, he's running the place, and his mutated "Bestials" (human/animal hybrids) are the main citizens with regular humans the minority. His Knights of Wundagore are his elite team that do some of the heavy enforcing and Spidey comes into conflict with them right away. Jameson is actually leading a band of rebels to take down the High Evolutionary and Bestials. Much more to talk about in later posts regarding the world Peter finds himself in and the new life he adopts as he gets caught up in all of this, but this is a nice visual collage of the show that gives you a feel of what it all looks like:  This is just a personal taste thing, but seeing Spidey in more of a sci-fi setting just works for me. It's visually compelling, and I just love the overall creativity. Next up: Back to the Bat, and a little spotlight on my favorite original villain from the series...the shapeshifting Inque!  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2023 10:44:32 GMT -5
As stated above, I'm going to put the spotlight on one of the new rogues, the intriguing character of Inque. Before I get into detail, a few comments on the general backdrop. Again, since this is a future based setting, a natural question may be what happened to some of the original Batman's adversaries. For the most part, they are not around, long ago locked up, dead, or otherwise missing. This opens up the creative opportunity, and no small challenge, to create new foes that are likewise compelling and fit the tone of the show. Part of the depth of the series, however, is not just the "bad guys" who Terry and Bruce have to combat in crimefighting mode. Terry's teen life touches on a number of serious societal issues, in part a reflection of the future world that has been envisioned, but also often a reflection of our real world in some ways. This latter aspect I'll say more on in a later post, but did not want to gloss over. Let's take a quick visual, similar to Spidey in the last post, of a number of characters that are encountered. Most are new (including Inque up in the top row, second from the right), but you may spot a teaser of someone much more classic (and I don't mean the Joker looking character) who I will definitely be highlighting in another post.  So who is "Inque" and what makes her interesting? Well, they took the word "ink" and changed the "k" to "que", which is pretty darn clever. But snazzy modern naming conventions aside (I mean, we were SO past fuddy duddy names like "Inkwoman" or "Madame Ink" by this time), there's some interesting characterization going on and that continues to develop as she makes appearances. Of course she cuts a great visual as well, and while shapeshifting is hardly original, it's put to good creative use in her conflicts with Terry and Bruce. One of the reasons I am also highlighting her is because she's really the first main rogue for Terry, debuting in the 3rd episode of season 1 which follows the 2-part origin episodes. She would appear in 4 episodes overall in the series making her also one of the most frequent adversaries. She's introduced as a mercenary engaged in sabotage and in "action form" doesn't even look human, what a visual:  What we learn about her through the series is that she came from a very poor background and became motivated to get herself out of poverty through a life of crime. But we also learn Inque has a daughter who she had when she was young and is estranged from. She has been regulary transfering money into an account to support her. During the series, she faces other issues such as losing the ability to change back to human form at one point (due to her time in cryogenic stasis when she was captured), and a double-crossing employer beaming her with a ray that starts to destabilize her form. This last instance sets up a reunion with her daughter, and I will not provide outright spoilers, but it's a heartbreaker. Inque's 4th and final appearance in the series proper is part of a bigger reveal regarding "who's still around" in the bigger DC continuity which will be yet another post topic. And as an aside, that's another fun aspect of this series, as the "reveal" of the fate of many characters from the past weaves in at different points throughout the show's run. With 3 seasons comprising 52 episodes and a movie (which alone is essential Batman viewing in my opinion), it is another considerable contrast point with Spider-Man Unlimited that got a single season with a measly 13 episodes (enjoyable as they were). She also later makes a cameo in a very important Justice League Unlimited episode. The JLU series was planning to end after season 2, and would cap off the entire DCAU run that began with Batman TAS. The season finale "Epilogue" (2005) returned us to the Batman Beyond world but 15 years later. It's a great episode and served well as the finale it was intended for. But plans changed and they made a season 3 of JLU after all, and I have to confess it was crazy good. To conclude, a few last shots of Inque in action:  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2023 10:35:20 GMT -5
Back to Spider-Man Unlimited, and today I'd like to cover a little more ground on the Knights of Wundagore who as I mentioned are in the service of the High Evolutionary. These Knights are different versions from classic comic book history, a theme you will see with a number of other characters who get introduced along the way. I'll also get a little more into Peter's new life on this strange world and the key folks around him. Before I jump into the details, a little more "stage-setting" and contrast with Batman Beyond. I mentioned earlier that the Spidey series was more colorful and fun whereas Batman Beyond had a more serious feel to the storytelling. I think of Spider-Man Unlimited in some ways having a similar feel to the earlier 90's X-Men cartoon, where the humans are like the hunted mutants instead, but there's still a very "mainstream comic" feel to it. There's certainly drama no doubt in Spider-Man Unlimited, but Spidey is still his wise-cracking self. At no point do you feel like things will go too badly in the end, no matter what goes down in the short term. Whereas Batman Beyond feels like the stakes are higher, from series start to finish IMO. Really bad things can happen and do sometimes. The "dystopian" aspect to the Spidey series is a more playful visual to me, the kind of show I could sit down with a bowl of Froot Loops and cheer on Spidey in his cool new suit. Batman Beyond is more like watching the Matrix for me, this mesmerizing but at the same time kind of scary place. But I digress, let's introduce these Knights of Wundagore. In keeping with the theme described above, they are pretty fun, four animal-based (naturally) characters who are the heavy-hitting enforcers and come into conflict with Spidey and the rebels periodically. Finding good image examples is a little challenging so not the best quality below, but from left to right, they are Lady Vermin (rat), Lady Ursula (bear), Lord Tyger (tiger), and Sir Ram (ram).  They show up a ton in the series, and in my opinion, Lady Vermin is the breakout star. She's an absolute hoot, supremely confident as the "charming one" and does her job well, but also has a significant "thing" for Spidey that adds some great levity at times as she tries to make him attracted to her. In terms of roles the others play, Sir Ram is the highly intelligent one with strong scientific skills and performs genetic engineering experiments. Lord Tyger plays a leadership role, and Lady Ursula is the muscle. Settling into this world to help with the rebellion, Spidey also adopts his Peter persona into daily life. He encounters Dr. Naoko Yamada-Jones after saving her son Shane from a "Machine Man" (evil robots that also serve the High Evolutionary and support the Knights, again my X-Men comparison, a little "Sentinel" feeling at times). Peter's got no way to make a living at this point, but for his heroism she takes him into her home on a temporary basis (initially). Naoko is a doctor running a clinic to help the people and in addition to her son Shane who lives with her, also has a husband who is apparently long lost. And thus the parallels to "regular Earth" Spidey...she likes Peter, but doesn't like Spider-Man. Peter has to find a way to earn a living and starts working for the "Daily Byte", and it's the old story of needing to sell pictures. And Naoko and Shane both grow to really like Peter, but Naoko is not aware of his secret and is on him for his lack of reliability. And personal opinion...I like her character! While it "conveniently plays out" to old Spidey life, she's trying to single parent it and work for something that is a cause in a world gone terribly wrong, and doesn't know what's happened to her husband along the way. Talk about strength! Shane's a really sweet kid as well, it's really cool seeing the bond he forms with Pete that's a little surrogate dad/big brother at times, but they don't involve Peter and Naoko romantically (in addition to Naoko still having attachment for her missing husband, Peter is still attached to Mary Jane back home and references how much he misses her) which I think was a good call. Their relationship works nicely as is. Naoko below and then Peter, Naoko, and Shane. Check out those late 90's fashions...Pete's hair is getting a bit spikey, pretty sure they make baggy Levi's Silver Tab jeans on Counter-Earth, and of course the oversized shoes/boots.   Let's wrap up today with something I probably should have posted at the start, the catchy show opening and theme song. Whatever happened to shows having these? Modern shows feel like "bargain packaging" to me...give me something epic to kick things off! |
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Post by Jesse on Sept 18, 2023 19:31:52 GMT -5
I love the art designs of both series!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2023 12:50:30 GMT -5
I love the art designs of both series! Same! Both are really visually compelling in their own ways. |
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Post by majestic on Sept 19, 2023 16:54:49 GMT -5
I watched every episode of Batman Beyond. It was an excellent addition to the Batman mythos. Spider-Man Unlimited? I only watched the first few episodes. It just didn't hold my interest.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2023 10:01:34 GMT -5
I've mentioned how both series were reflections in many ways on modern times (again both starting in 1999), such as the technology focus with both costumes. A related theme that comes to mind is genetic engineering which was increasingly in focus in the real world, with events like the cloning of Dolly the sheep happening just a few years prior. Spider-Man Unlimited overall was firmly rooted in genetic engineering as the backdrop with the High Evolutionary's activities with the Bestials, but Batman Beyond touched on the theme as well, notably in the season 2 opening episode "Splicers". The premise of the show is that a process for adding animal DNA to humans has been developed, but unlike the Spider-Man series it's portrayed as a "fashion trend". The issue that arises is that it also creates more aggressive behavior in the humans who undergo the procedure. Again, another cautionary tale envisioning where science could be taking us in the real world. Some of Terry's classmates who have undergone the procedure:  This continues to be a strength I find with Batman Beyond, the conflicts go well beyond traditional "super-villains" even though you get plenty of that type of action as well. McGinnis' life as a teen in this dytopian setting feels eerily prescient of what kids in more modern times have faced...lives increasingly consumed by technology, trends toward more extreme appearances (relative to generations past), and a world overall with seemingly heightened dangers. And with that, though I've covered some high level background already, let's finally discuss the character of Terry McGinnis in more detail, after all, he IS the new Batman and overall series lead here. Here is a picture of him with his mother and younger brother he lives with:  As mentioned before, it all starts with a very typical "Bat-story" type event...by chance he discovers the Batcave and Bruce's secrets, and then his father is murdered and it all leads to Bruce taking on Terry as his "apprentice", just not a "new Robin". But this is where I am more vested in Spider-Man Unlimited from a character standpoint. Peter is still the Peter we know and love despite the significant change in setting, he's his classic wise-cracking but honorable self. Terry serves the premise of Batman Beyond fine, but overall he's not very original...troubled teen, tragedy strikes and changes his outlook on life, but he's still trying to grow up as a teen (dealing with family, dating, school, etc.) and learning how to be a superhero with the assistance of a difficult/controlling but brilliant and ultimately caring (in his own way) mentor. If the show didn't have Bruce in it though, I don't know Terry alone would carry it for me. He continues to develop just fine throughout the series, but in a rather predictable way. Let's also talk about another key supporting character I mentioned earlier, Police Commissioner Barbara Gordon. I love seeing her in this series and in this role. I don't want to give outright spoilers of "who from the old cast is still around, and who is not" because I think part of the joy of the series is seeing all of that unfold, but one theme I'll mention is that you get the sense Bruce at some point in the past parted with everyone important in his life and not necessarily on the best terms. Barbara fits into this category, even though there's still a respect and shared history, but she is clearly now of the mindset (at least initially) that vigilante justice is not the way (though she does come to eventually accept Terry as the new Batman). I'll wrap up this post with an image of Barbara now aged gracefully in a touching nostalgic scene:  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2023 10:44:47 GMT -5
Let's also post up that excellent Batman Beyond show opening since we did the same for Spider-Man Unlimited. Killer visual and music, though I will confess, the brief dance scene always did make me giggle a little:
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2023 12:00:46 GMT -5
Back on Spider-Man Unlimited, we've talked about the High Evolutionary and his Knights of Wundagore. Let's now discuss some of the other interesting action-based characters that appear. New versions of classic comic book characters continue to get introduced, and while Lady Vermin was my breakout star from the Knights, the overall series breakout character might be the Counter-Earth Green Goblin:  Unlike his traditional counterpart, this Goblin is a good guy despite a misunderstanding initially putting him at odds with Spidey. He's just got a great lively personality and appears in 3 episodes overall. His actual identity is also an important plot point for the series. Here's another shot of the Goblin below on the left, and then to the right a particularly cool-looking Electro (a Bestial "eel" type and definitely evil!):  Below are the Counter-Earth versions of the Vulture (also a good guy) and then the very identifiable Kraven counterpart, "The Hunter" (still bad!):   And I'll say it again, while Batman and Spider-Man were going after different visual styles, my personal tastes run more towards Spider-Man Unlimited. These designs look great to me, really cool "reimagining" of classic characters/looks, which also serve to make Counter-Earth this interesting somewhat warped facsimile of regular Earth. It's almost like Spider-Man is having this bad dream and everybody he knows is a weird "dreamscape" version. Yet the dream never quite reaches the full-on nightmare status that Batman Beyond seems to at times. As mentioned earlier in this thread, John Jameson is the leader of a rebellion against the High Evolutionary and the Bestials. Here is a shot of John with the group:  The character above all the way to the left with the face covered is "Git", and is a particularly tragic character who does not talk. The 4th episode "Deadly Choices" features him and I found this one particularly interesting, a little heavier in tone than some of the others. Finally for today, let's also look at X-51, formerly in the service of the High Evolutionary as one of his Machine Men, but through events has now become independent and good. Another fun character, and I mentioned this briefly towards the start of the thread, here in this screenshot one of the "comic pane" captions they use as a visual element at times:  |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Sept 24, 2023 7:16:08 GMT -5
For me, the reinventions on Spider-Man just felt too convenient. Like, if it were an alternate reality situation I could buy other people deciding to become the Green Goblin and Kraven and the Vulture...but if it's just another planet in the same reality? And they dress nearly the same?
How does that happen organically?
Batman Beyond avoided all that by largely creating new villains. Sure, some of them have similar features; like Inque can change form like Clayface and has a bad girl with a heart of gold personality like Catwoman but she isn't a one to one redo like Spider-Man Unlimited's Vulture is. And then you have legacy villains, just like Terry is the new Batman you have a new generation of the Royal Flush Gang and there's a gang who modled themselves after the Joker both of which avoid that artificial feeling that I felt the new Spider-Man villains had.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2023 10:46:33 GMT -5
For me, the reinventions on Spider-Man just felt too convenient. Like, if it were an alternate reality situation I could buy other people deciding to become the Green Goblin and Kraven and the Vulture...but if it's just another planet in the same reality? And they dress nearly the same? How does that happen organically? Batman Beyond avoided all that by largely creating new villains. Sure, some of them have similar features; like Inque can change form like Clayface and has a bad girl with a heart of gold personality like Catwoman but she isn't a one to one redo like Spider-Man Unlimited's Vulture is. And then you have legacy villains, just like Terry is the new Batman you have a new generation of the Royal Flush Gang and there's a gang who modled themselves after the Joker both of which avoid that artificial feeling that I felt the new Spider-Man villains had. I agree, and I think that brings up another good comparison point. Spidey feels just a tad more younger viewing to me, where say the visual imagery of these reimagined characters takes precedence over in-depth plotting that perhaps makes a little more sense. If Counter-Earth were truly a "parallel" world in another universe, one could probably suspend belief a little more since that's a classic concept. The fact that it's literally in the same universe and opposite side of orbit of actual Earth makes everything, as you say, too convenient. Maybe said another way, I don't know that the Spider-Man series events are something I could believe would happen in the main Spider-Man comics, but I could see Batman Beyond definitely being a possible comic book future. |
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