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Post by jason on May 30, 2024 11:37:56 GMT -5
Speaking of real life tie-ins, I read that they were considering having Big Van Vader be introduced in the toyline as a "rival" to Slaughter, but negotiations fell through, though we DID end up with a Roddy Piper figure many years later.
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Post by commond on May 30, 2024 15:13:26 GMT -5
Is Slaughter portrayed as being the actual wrestler Sgt. Slaughter in the comics or just a drill instructor? He barely features in the comics, as far as I can recall.
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Post by driver1980 on May 30, 2024 15:27:55 GMT -5
I hate Serpentor. That is all. For me, G.I. Joe was a quasi-realistic military cartoon that felt like, under certain circumstances, it was the world outside my window, but once Serpentor came into it, it became almost akin to science fiction. I guess the closest analogy would be how James Bond presented larger-than-life opponents like Jaws who were semi-believable, but if a Bond film had suddenly had a reptilian foe cloned from the DNA of history’s conquerors, that would have been a step too far. I wanted G.I. Joe to keep one foot in the real world - or both feet - as much as possible, but Serpentor made such suspension of disbelief impossible.
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Post by commond on May 30, 2024 16:00:42 GMT -5
The thing I hate the most about Serpentor is that it was the first G.I. Joe toy I gravitated towards as a kid. Fortunately, Hama felt the same way about Serpentor and a lot of the latter characters as well. That said, he has brought Serpentor back from time to time.
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Post by codystarbuck on May 30, 2024 20:41:36 GMT -5
Getting back to Torpedo, I forgot to mention the errors in his uniform. My first thought was that they had him in Army uniform, until I double checked his bio card and he is a Warrant Officer; so, he would be wearing khakis. His are not bloused, like you see with Roadblock, which would be correct because he would either wear boondockers, on board ship (steel-toed low rise boots, aka, Chukka-boots) or black oxfords. That would be his working uniform, when not in the field. HOWEVER, Whigham drew stripes on his sleeves. A Warrant Officer wears collar rank insignia, consisting of a metal bar, with three blue squares, to signify CWO4 (Chief Warrant Officer-4).
A warrant officer is an enlisted non-com promoted to an officer rank, due to technical expertise. I spent 6 months temporary duty on a destroyer tender and we had 3 or 4 warrant officers, who were engineering experts, who oversaw specific repair activities, including one who oversaw the diver contingent (for underwater repairs). He was my roommate, onboard ship. In terms of rank, it is above a non-com, but below an ensign or above, though , in practice, an ensign who can fog a mirror would never try to pull rank on a warrant officer.
It looks like he was given CPO stripes. Shipwreck should sport those, though he should also be in khakis and not dungarees, with a combination cap or piss-cutter (garrison cap), or ballcap, onboard ship (which features the ship's name, on the crown patch).
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Post by codystarbuck on May 30, 2024 21:05:55 GMT -5
Is Slaughter portrayed as being the actual wrestler Sgt. Slaughter in the comics or just a drill instructor? He barely features in the comics, as far as I can recall. This is his first comic appearance and he is depicted as a US Marine, in camo utilities, with non-com stripes, but they aren't clearly defined. His backer card indicates that his rank is E-7, which would be a Gunnery Sergeant, which would be "3-up and 2-down" As you can see, they should also be green chevrons, on a field of red, with crossed rifles in the center. Gunny would be about right, as most DIs in the Marine Corps are Staff Sergeants or Gunnery Sergeants, with some sergeants and corporals as Assistant DIs.. They are colored gold, in the comic, which might be a color error, though I think Whigham had no idea. The figure more closely resembles Slaughter's ring attire, in the WWF, with camo utility pants, black singlet, the DI hat and Rayban sunglasses, plus combat boots. In Mid-Atlantic and his previous WWF tours, Slaughter wore black long tights with the singlet and the DI hat and glasses, but not cammo pants or blouse (even coming to the ring) and black wrestling boots. There is also an error on Roadblock's uniform, as the chevrons are pointing down, like a Navy petty officer and not up, like the Army and Marine Corps. His card says he is E-4, which is three stripes, so they have the number correct, they are just upside down. The backer card doesn't mention wrestling and acts like he is a Marine DI, training the JOEs. It gives his birthplace as Paris Island, then talks about him training boots, at Camp Pendleton. Don't know why Hama picked Pendleton, instead of Paris Island or Camp LeJeune (unless he wasn't still writing them). Whigham gets a general likeness but doesn't really capture his jaw, which is one of Remus' most prominent features, which was always a big part of the look. I caught him once, channel surfing, in the cartoon, training the JOEs and no service branch is mentioned and no reference to wrestling. As far as I know, within the JOE Universe, he was treated solely as the JOEs drill instructor/trainer and was a Marine. So far, none of the artist is particularly good at drawing a camo pattern that is remotely close to Army or Marine issue and the colorists aren't helping. I get why you would put that much time into it, as making deadline would be impossible. The best thing to do would be to create a kind of zip-a-tone overlay, with the pattern built-in. Nowadays, computers could take care of that. Whigham is so-so with uniform details, but I suspect they were more concerned about capturing the figure details than the military accuracy. (EDIT) The toy packing shows a Marine Globe & Anchor on Slaughter's hat; but, he always had gold Army Staff Sergeant stripes device. In later years, he had either Army or Marine Staff Sergeant Stripes on the hat device pin. A Marine DI hat has the Globe & Anchor, in subdued black, and the Army has the Army eagle, also in subdued black.
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Post by codystarbuck on May 30, 2024 21:13:06 GMT -5
I hate Serpentor. That is all. I think it is a stupid idea and pointless, with Cobra Commander, Destro and the Baroness serving as the command group, for Cobra. It pushes this from military fantasy to comic book super-villain fantasy, more in line with Hama's original Fury Force SHIELD proposal. All we are missing are super-powered JOEs. Zartan was already treadig into sci-fi; but, we have gone full 4-color funnybook, now. I get the feeling that he was created to freshen up the villain side, for the cartoon, more than the toyline....maybe also to move it more into a super-villain territory than a pure military one. I'm sure there is an interview out there that covers the reasoning behind him.
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Post by codystarbuck on May 30, 2024 21:26:03 GMT -5
Speaking of real life tie-ins, I read that they were considering having Big Van Vader be introduced in the toyline as a "rival" to Slaughter, but negotiations fell through, though we DID end up with a Roddy Piper figure many years later. That would have had to have been later, as he wasn't wrestling in the US, under the Vader name, until 1990. He started in 1985, in the AWA as Leon "the Baby Bull" White and then started wrestling in Germany, for Otto Wanz's Catch Wrestling Association, as Bull Power, in '86 and then for New Japan, in 1987, as Big Van Vader, with the headpiece and a full mask, underneath. The mask morphed over the years, into what he had in WCW and WWF. Part of the problem with that would be that the headpiece belonged to New Japan and the whole name thing was likely to bring an issue with Lucasfilm. I don't think the wrestling use was enough to care about, or WCW and WWF paid a licensing fee to Lucasfilm, though I never heard that they did. The claim that it was based on a legendary samurai was New Japan bullshido, to keep from being sued. If they wanted a rival, they should have signed up Ranger Ross. He would have come cheaper and he was a legit Army Ranger....before becoming a legit bank robber! Or they could have used Greg Gagne.... Rambo, eat your heart out!
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Post by codystarbuck on May 30, 2024 21:45:02 GMT -5
I hate Serpentor. That is all. For me, G.I. Joe was a quasi-realistic military cartoon that felt like, under certain circumstances, it was the world outside my window, but once Serpentor came into it, it became almost akin to science fiction. I guess the closest analogy would be how James Bond presented larger-than-life opponents like Jaws who were semi-believable, but if a Bond film had suddenly had a reptilian foe cloned from the DNA of history’s conquerors, that would have been a step too far. I wanted G.I. Joe to keep one foot in the real world - or both feet - as much as possible, but Serpentor made such suspension of disbelief impossible. I terms of the toys, it started out as a military-themed toy, with a fictional enemy so you had someone to fight, without a national stereotype to offend potential foreign markets. In the comic, it starts out relatively the same, with a little better authenticity, thanks to Hama's life experience. The cartoon was pure fantasy from the get-go, with the JOE team being something more like SHIELD, a counter-terrorism unit, drawing from civilian and military. It was more sci-fi, from the start, with the teleportation and such, with the MASS device. With Serpentor added, it went into full on comic book super-villainy and never went back. Even Bond kept that kind of thing somewhat on a leash and would usually pull back to a more realistic threat, after they strayed too far into fantasy. As we have seen in the comic, Hama incorporates more and more elements of the toy line and the cartoon continuity and story-style. The first year, there is a mix of relatively realistic missions and more fanciful ones. Once It starts adding the new toys, we move further and further into fantasy, as more Cobra officers are introduced and people like Zartan and the Dreadnoks. The figures move more and more away from pure military uniforms, with stylistic enhancements, to more individual looks, more akin to costumes. The vehicles moved further and further away from practical to full on fantasy, too, with stuff like Serpentor's chariot, the Dreadnoks and Zartan vehicles, Slaughter's Tag Team Terminator (which is basically an armed tractor). The laser weapons in the cartoon were a concession to Broadcast Standards & Practices, so we didn't reinforce firing guns in the kids' minds. Problem is, it also taught them that no one gets hurt in war. See where that led us, over the decades. Jonny Quest taught you to respect firearms and that they were dangerous. GI JOE said that weapons don't harm people. That way lies madness.
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Post by codystarbuck on May 30, 2024 21:49:25 GMT -5
ps I was never sure if the khaki coloring was a mistake on the part of the colorists or in direction from Hama to do the Vietnam Era uniform that he knew. When they do have OD green, the shade is often wrong. Scarlett's coloring is relatively accurate and Hawk in dress uniform is close; but has detail issues.
It might have been a better idea to give the JOEs their own working and dress uniforms and make them like a special service, like with the UN blue helmets and berets and uniform insignia.
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Post by foxley on May 31, 2024 2:37:51 GMT -5
For me, G.I. Joe was a quasi-realistic military cartoon that felt like, under certain circumstances, it was the world outside my window, but once Serpentor came into it, it became almost akin to science fiction. I guess the closest analogy would be how James Bond presented larger-than-life opponents like Jaws who were semi-believable, but if a Bond film had suddenly had a reptilian foe cloned from the DNA of history’s conquerors, that would have been a step too far. I wanted G.I. Joe to keep one foot in the real world - or both feet - as much as possible, but Serpentor made such suspension of disbelief impossible. I terms of the toys, it started out as a military-themed toy, with a fictional enemy so you had someone to fight, without a national stereotype to offend potential foreign markets. In the comic, it starts out relatively the same, with a little better authenticity, thanks to Hama's life experience. The cartoon was pure fantasy from the get-go, with the JOE team being something more like SHIELD, a counter-terrorism unit, drawing from civilian and military. It was more sci-fi, from the start, with the teleportation and such, with the MASS device. With Serpentor added, it went into full on comic book super-villainy and never went back. Even Bond kept that kind of thing somewhat on a leash and would usually pull back to a more realistic threat, after they strayed too far into fantasy. As we have seen in the comic, Hama incorporates more and more elements of the toy line and the cartoon continuity and story-style. The first year, there is a mix of relatively realistic missions and more fanciful ones. Once It starts adding the new toys, we move further and further into fantasy, as more Cobra officers are introduced and people like Zartan and the Dreadnoks. The figures move more and more away from pure military uniforms, with stylistic enhancements, to more individual looks, more akin to costumes. The vehicles moved further and further away from practical to full on fantasy, too, with stuff like Serpentor's chariot, the Dreadnoks and Zartan vehicles, Slaughter's Tag Team Terminator (which is basically an armed tractor). The laser weapons in the cartoon were a concession to Broadcast Standards & Practices, so we didn't reinforce firing guns in the kids' minds. Problem is, it also taught them that no one gets hurt in war. See where that led us, over the decades. Jonny Quest taught you to respect firearms and that they were dangerous. GI JOE said that weapons don't harm people. That way lies madness. One of the reasons why I really like the early issues of Special Missions is that they avoid the sci-fi/fantasy silliness that was taking over the main book, and focus on way more serious military spec-ops/espionage missions; not even featuring Cobra in most of them. Unfortunately, this element gradually disappeared as the series went on.
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Post by driver1980 on May 31, 2024 5:08:35 GMT -5
codystarbuck , I agree with you about Bond keeping things on a leash and being more realistic. I mean, I could accept Jaws, especially as one canon (novels?) mentioned how he’d had his teeth broken by secret police prior to having steel jaws inserted. Who knows, maybe in a world where we can have root canal treatment and countless fillings, the idea of a metal-mouthed foe is semi-believable. But clones in a Bond film? No! I do have a book about Bond here, and there’s information on how one film producer considered featuring robotic sharks. Hmmm, too much away from the semi-believable nature of cinematic Bond, if you ask me. So, Serpentor was a step too far. foxley , I agree about Special Missions. They are my favourite Joe books. Their missions seem akin to what I’d imagine the likes of the SAS get up to.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 1, 2024 12:01:10 GMT -5
I cam across a couple of interviews with Larry Hama, including this clip, where he discusses the genesis of the silent issue and his working style, which is largely improvising, page by page. From the same interview, talking about creating the file card profiles of the characters and deciding on home towns, as well as personalities. In another interview, Hama talked about how he got the series. He was editing and trying to get some writing work (probably yo supplement income, as much as creative work) and couldn't get any work from any of the other editors. Meanwhile, Hasbro and Marvel were talking about doing a comic to help sell the toys and Jim Shooter went to offices trying to find someone to write it. As he says, licensed comics paid the lowest rates, since the license holder got their money off the top. Shooter went down the hall, office to office, with everyone begging off. Hama had the last office and said yes, to get some writing work and the rest was history. The file cards were originally his way of keeping the characters straight and to give them personalities and background that would give him something to write. The design illustrations he saw had generic names, like "infantry" and "mortar." In the one clip above (creating characters) he says Snake Eyes was a money saving toy, labelled "commando." They thought was, if the toy was all black, they didn't have to paint it, saving them production costs. he then built a background around the figure and gave him the name Snake Eyes. So, when I gripe a bit about the reality vs the fantasy, a lot of it is predicated on the fact that Hama is improvising this stuff, not planning it out and researching it. he also has to serve the toys and their designs and since Hasbro moved more and more into individualized looks, the military aspect gets subordinated. Some of it, though, makes more sense for selling a toy than telling a story about a counter-terrorism squad. Why would you need a dedicated firefighter, like Barbecue? Onboard ship, we are all trained in firefighting techniques, because of the dangers of a shipboard fire. How often would a counter-terror unit need to put out a fire, by themselves? better to cross-train in basic firefighting, then call in professionals for something beyond that. Same reasoning for the police calling in a SWAT team, or a unit like GI JOE. We assume that Cobra is too heavily armed for the police to handle. One of the audience brings up the racial diversity. When I read back over my previous thoughts and the characters that people pointed out I was forgetting, you realize how many characters there are and that some disappear for long stretches and you forget about them; but, when you look across the whole line, it is more representative than I gave it credit for. In my defense, I am basing things on the series, up to the issue I am discussing. I originally only read about the first 8 issues (plus or minus 1). So, each review is based on a first time reading of the story and my reaction to it. I don't have detailed notes and haven't read these stories multiple times, so, I forget about characters like Doc, who haven't had much screen time and haven't read all of their backer cards, usually only looking them up if I want to fact check a point I want to raise. So, after watching these interviews, I will try to ease up on lack of research or knowledge of other branches of service, though I will still highlight reality vs presented, where appropriate (like long-haired Marines). Still, expect the Navy depictions to be a sore point and at least a "harumph" every time Shipwreck turns up.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 1, 2024 12:06:26 GMT -5
ps I did glance ahead to issue 50, which includes a preview of the new Special Missions companion series. Based on what I saw there, I may try alternating between issues of the main series and issues of it. I don't know where or when I might try to mix in the Action Force/European Missions stuff. I will try to at least do an overview review, if nothing else. Any national stereotype jokes are in fun and not meant as an insult. Except for Belgium......
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 1, 2024 22:24:45 GMT -5
More with Larry Hama and the guys at 3DJOEs, which I use quite a bit, for the toy history and the file card info. Interesting to learn that Daina, of the Oktober Guard, was based on Howard Chaykin's first wife, who was named Daina (Graziunas). Howard's on marriage #4, so, might get some more characters! It definitely answers some of my questions about how much he was having to answer to Hasbro, on the book. He makes a comment about showing the enemy as people and mentioning the propagandist view and I have to think that was born out of his experiences in Vietnam, especially as an Asian-American. I might be reading too much into that; but, it would seem to fit.
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