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Post by Randle-El on Mar 4, 2016 16:19:15 GMT -5
I finished watching season 2 a few days ago. It's definitely a big step up from S1, but still has some rough edges. I would say that overall, it had a greater number of good episodes compared to S1, and the bad ones were not nearly as bad as the bad S1 episodes. The writers are making Dax a bit more of an interesting character. In S1, she was just sort of there without much to do, giving me the distinct impression that her main role was eye candy. I love the Garak episodes -- he's my favorite recurring character, and I'm looking forward to seeing more of what he's all about. I enjoy how the writers string you along, making you think you might have learned something about him only to realize that you haven't. A few other S2 observations:
1) They introduce the concept that there are universal translators EVERYWHERE working ALL THE TIME. While this finally explains why everyone seems like they speak English, I think I would have preferred that they left this one alone. I feel like the actual explanation requires greater suspension of disbelief than the thing they are trying to explain, like when comic book writers explain that matter is shunted from an alternate dimension to explain why certain characters can violate the law of conservation of mass.
2) In the episode introducing the Maquis, I like that the writers finally acknowledge the discrepancy between utopian Earth vs. other parts of the galaxy (Sisko's line about the Maquis being forced to violence because they don't live on Earth where such problems don't exist). Roddenberry always intended for Star Trek to be an embodiment of his humanistic ideals, but there was always a conflict between that and the need to create compelling plots, which are hard to do if the rest of the galaxy doesn't have problems. It was a little throwaway line of dialogue, but it was nice that it was there.
3) I like that they are slowly easing the viewers into more serialized storytelling and tighter continuity. They give you an opening three-parter, then go back to done-in-one episodes, but they revisit past stories/plots (like Garak) while subtly sowing the seeds for future stories (the periodic mentions of the Dominion).
4) Speaking of continuity, the mirror universe episode was a great nod to TOS. I feel like that one could have easily been one of the mediocre TNG episodes from S1 when they were still borrowing heavily from TOS to make sure that you remembered this was a Star Trek show. I think it was far more effective as a DS9 episode, which is a much darker series, and which never had the problem of trying to step out of TOS's shadows.
5) The Cardassians are getting fleshed out a lot more. While they are still firmly being cast in the villain role, there are glimmers of more sympathetic aspects of their society, like Gul Dukat. He's still being played as an antagonist, but I get the feeling they are setting him up to be more honorable character than the rest of the Cardassians. If I recall, this season of DS9 coincided with the last season of TNG, which was when they introduced the notion of a Cardassian dissident movement, so that definitely creates room for more "good" Cardassians in the future.
6) I think I have a crush on Major Kira/Nana Visitor.
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Post by SJNeal on Mar 5, 2016 20:12:47 GMT -5
The writers are making Dax a bit more of an interesting character. In S1, she was just sort of there without much to do, giving me the distinct impression that her main role was eye candy. Legend has it that the reason the Trill's looked changed between TNG and DS9 was because they didn't want to hide Terry Farrell's face behind a lumpy prosthetic. Make of that what you will...
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Post by Randle-El on Mar 23, 2016 1:18:25 GMT -5
Just finished watching "The Visitor" from season 4. Maybe it's because I'm now a father of three, including a newborn son, but I was a sobbing mess after watching that one. Terrific episode.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 23, 2016 8:08:27 GMT -5
I finished watching season 2 a few days ago. It's definitely a big step up from S1, but still has some rough edges. I would say that overall, it had a greater number of good episodes compared to S1, and the bad ones were not nearly as bad as the bad S1 episodes. The writers are making Dax a bit more of an interesting character. In S1, she was just sort of there without much to do, giving me the distinct impression that her main role was eye candy. I love the Garak episodes -- he's my favorite recurring character, and I'm looking forward to seeing more of what he's all about. I enjoy how the writers string you along, making you think you might have learned something about him only to realize that you haven't. A few other S2 observations: 1) They introduce the concept that there are universal translators EVERYWHERE working ALL THE TIME. While this finally explains why everyone seems like they speak English, I think I would have preferred that they left this one alone. I feel like the actual explanation requires greater suspension of disbelief than the thing they are trying to explain, like when comic book writers explain that matter is shunted from an alternate dimension to explain why certain characters can violate the law of conservation of mass. Good point. Sometimes less is more, especially when dealing with technologies that are there just to facilitate the plot. Personally, I still don't get how someone can tap a communicator and say "Sisko to Odo" and instantly get the reply "Odo here". Until the caller has finished his sentence, how does the device know whom to contact? And once it does, shouldn't there be a delay until the reply comes? But it's better to just not think too much about it. Absolutely! DS9 was the best series, in my opinion, in terms of pacing continued sub-plots and individual episodes. Good call on Dukat. At one point he was on the verge of becoming my favourite DS9 character! The series was remarkable in its nuanced treatment of alien cultures. Sure, the Bajorans were introduced as "the good ones, the oppressed, the underdogs" and the Cardassians as "the bad ones, the occupiers, the fascists". But over time we got to see many bad aspects of Bajoran culture, and many good ones of the Cardassian's. In the final analysis, nothing is ever as simple as most TV shows make it look like, and DS9 reflected that beautifully.
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Post by Randle-El on Mar 24, 2016 9:52:07 GMT -5
Good call on Dukat. At one point he was on the verge of becoming my favourite DS9 character! The series was remarkable in its nuanced treatment of alien cultures. Sure, the Bajorans were introduced as "the good ones, the oppressed, the underdogs" and the Cardassians as "the bad ones, the occupiers, the fascists". But over time we got to see many bad aspects of Bajoran culture, and many good ones of the Cardassian's. In the final analysis, nothing is ever as simple as most TV shows make it look like, and DS9 reflected that beautifully. I think that's true of real life as well. It was pointed out to me that we have a tendency to characterize our opponents in simple black-and-white terms (they are evil, wrong, stupid, foolish, etc), whereas we tend to be much more nuanced about ourselves (we are justified, our situation is complicated, or we are a victim of our circumstances). In reality, I think the truth lies somewhere in between. I believe that when pressed in the right way, we all have the potential to be as "evil" or "foolish" as those we condemn harshly, particularly when something we love or hold dear is threatened. Whatever else one may think of the Star Wars prequel trilogy, I think one aspect that was pretty relevant to society is the notion that what appears to be evil is simply a good person who has allowed his love of something good to become an all-encompassing obsession. I think that is much more realistic portrayal of villains because that's not far off from what happens in real life.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 24, 2016 11:01:05 GMT -5
Good call on Dukat. At one point he was on the verge of becoming my favourite DS9 character! The series was remarkable in its nuanced treatment of alien cultures. Sure, the Bajorans were introduced as "the good ones, the oppressed, the underdogs" and the Cardassians as "the bad ones, the occupiers, the fascists". But over time we got to see many bad aspects of Bajoran culture, and many good ones of the Cardassian's. In the final analysis, nothing is ever as simple as most TV shows make it look like, and DS9 reflected that beautifully. I think that's true of real life as well. It was pointed out to me that we have a tendency to characterize our opponents in simple black-and-white terms (they are evil, wrong, stupid, foolish, etc), whereas we tend to be much more nuanced about ourselves (we are justified, our situation is complicated, or we are a victim of our circumstances). In reality, I think the truth lies somewhere in between. I believe that when pressed in the right way, we all have the potential to be as "evil" or "foolish" as those we condemn harshly, particularly when something we love or hold dear is threatened. Whatever else one may think of the Star Wars prequel trilogy, I think one aspect that was pretty relevant to society is the notion that what appears to be evil is simply a good person who has allowed his love of something good to become an all-encompassing obsession. I think that is much more realistic portrayal of villains because that's not far off from what happens in real life. Agreed, agreed! Regarding the Star Wars prequels, though, I think that the films' good intentions were betrayed by sloppy writing... I think Anakin's conversion would have worked far, far better had it been based on his opposition to the Jedi council trying to murder a democratically-elected chancellor (since that's what the Jedi were doing). His already-established sympathy for imposed peace and order could then have simply been allowed to come to fruition, bringing him squarely on the side of the empire. Palpatine, instead of turning into a grandiloquent and cackling caricature, could have remained his manipulative self, insisting that only a strong hand could put an end to such civil unrest. George Lucas decided instead to give us a credibility-stretching explanation, that Anakin was so emotionally imbalanced that the mere fear of losing his wife would lead him to slaughter a houseful of children. That wasn't necessary... Anakin was halfway there anyway, what with his estrangement from the council and his annoyance with democracy's inefficiency. He could have turned imperial first and turned against his friends, leading to Padme leaving him, leading him to grow ever more violent. No need to resort to such silliness as that ploy about stopping death or keeling over because one has lost the will to live! Anyhoo, back to real-life villains... One thing should always been remembered by writers : no villain is a villain in his own eyes.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Mar 24, 2016 15:58:16 GMT -5
I always pictured the communicators on Star Trek to be like a CB channel, that either a) the were trained to block out unless they needed it or b) that had a computer filter and route appropriately.
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Post by SJNeal on Mar 24, 2016 18:24:19 GMT -5
Regarding communicators, I always liked to think that the initial communication (i.e. "Picard to Riker") was heard across the ships intercom by all, and once Riker tapped his badge in response, the channel was closed and just the intended parties stayed in touch at that point. Again, just more head canon.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Mar 25, 2016 21:11:40 GMT -5
S2 e19
Blood Oath
A Bunch on old Klingons come to DS9 looking for Dax to complete a Blood Oath against 'the Albino'. The 'leader', Kang, who made Kurzon the godfather of his son, tells Dax she's released from the oath, but Dax wants in. Dax goes to the Holosuite to prove herself, but Kang still doesn't want her.
Turns out Kang made a deal with the bad guy, it's pretty much suicide for an honorable death, but Dax convinces Kang to actually try.
The plan works flawlessly, but they're outnumbered about 10-1, so Kang's too sidekicks are (seemingly) mortally wounded as Kang gets to the Albino... but he shatters his Bat'leh against a metal post and loses the duel. Dax jumps in, and while the Albino mocks her, Kang kills him from behind dying himself. Kor (one of the others) apparently not actually dying, and sings a song to honor his friends.
Notes:
It gets a little old with Dax convincing people he's the same guy/girl... Shouldn't the galaxy in general (or at least friends of a Trill) know how that works?
Funny how 'buddies with Klingons' became 'cool' in the Trek universe somehow.
It IS nice to have someone 'in universe' talk about how they changed, though. Even more awesome that all three Klingons were in a TOS episode.
These old guys are a lot less graceful and scary looking than Worf.. I hope that's on purpose.
Dax looks kinda silly in Klingon garb... she should have stuck with the dark sweater.
Wow, the guards look really ridiculous with those helmets... and why the heck aren't they Klingons?
Pretty cool episode, but didn't seem like it fit DS9.. this would have worked a lot better using Worf in TNG, or even just some minor character.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Mar 25, 2016 22:45:20 GMT -5
S2 e20-21 The Marquis Part 1-2
Dax and Kira are on the bridge doing regular traffic stuff when a departing Cardassian ship explodes, killing all aboard.
As far of the investigation, some guy Sisko knows pops by... he's pretty bitter about how things have gone, though. Calvin (his friend) seems like he likes the Cardassians a lot more than anyone else does.. which is interesting.
Some mysterious people do stuff.. not idea why yet. Then Dukat turns up in Sisko's quarters. He claims to know what happens, and Sisko heads out with him in a Runabout.
They head out, and find Federation and Cardassian ships fighting each other, with no response to Dukat.
Meanwhile, Quark tries to seduce some Vulcan chick that I assume is related in some way. Turns out she's an illegal arms dealer, to Quark's shock.
Duka and Sisko head to the demilitarized zone, and find out the Caradassians are being terrorized but Federation citizens, and have a confession from the guy who blew the ship up (he was one of the people shown earlier). Of course, he killed himself (according to the Cardassians) after his taped confession... so tensions are high.
Kira, of course, assumes the Cardassians are the bad guys, and is mad Sisko doesn't agree.
Dukat gets kidnapped, including the Vulcan woman, and a group called the Marquis take credit. Sisko chases them, and his buddy Calvin is their leader. After they try to recruit each other, The Marquis shoot Sisko, Kira, and Bashir and leave.
A Federation Admiral comes by and gives a lot of platitudes that piss Sisko off. He preaches to the choir some.
They figure out Quark talked to the Vulcan, and arrest him. They actually keep him in jail this time.
The Cardassians don't want Dukat back, so Sisko goes hunting. Odo comes along. The Marquis Vulcan tries unsuccessfully to mind meld info from Dukat... the Federation come in for the save before they start torturing him.
After a stand-off, Dukat forces everyone to start shooting, and the good guys win and take prisoners. Dukat claims he's the fall guy for Central Command causing trouble, and promises to help if Sisko helps him.
The go out and find a gun runner, with Dukat intimidating the guy into submission.
Back at the station, Quark lectures the Vulcan on how she's illogical, which is pretty fun.
Dukat finds out where a Cardassian weapon depot is, and they find out the Marquis are planning on attacking it from the Vulcan. Sisko tries one more try to get to Calvin, and fails.
They have a dog fight, and the federation stop the raid, but Sisko lets Calvin escape, must to Dukat's dismay.
Notes:
They like to throw in 'girl talk' every so often. I hate it. I feel like it cheapens the characters more than showing how good a friends they are (Which I assume is the goal). If everyone in the Federation likes baseball, why did isn't it still around. Another chapter in the 'what the heck is latinum worth, anyway'... Quark is counting the days take, and he's got at least 50 bars out on the table.. in plain site of the customers. What happened to 5 being a lot? If he makes that much every day, why was a suitcase even that exciting? LOVE Sisko and Dukat's discussions.. hilarious. Calvin is a terrible, terrible actor. Having Kira and Bashir go with him was very TOS.. but didn't make much sense. Up until know, he always brought O'Brien.. and usually Dax. Kira shouldn't be anywhere near Cardassians that might be good guys. The more I watch this show, the more I picture the Cardassians as the greatest Beaucracy in the galaxy... they all act like accountants. Dukat is pretty damn awesome here, though I can't figure out what side he's on. Odo throwing his arm like a lasso? Awesome. Yup, Dukat is awesome.. can he be in charge of DS9 again? Wow, great two-parter.. why was this not on like 20 episodes ago?
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Post by Randle-El on Mar 26, 2016 0:11:22 GMT -5
Was it in "Blood Oath" that established Trills are not required to fulfill the obligations of former hosts? You would have thought someone would have mentioned it in the S1 episode where they put Jadzia Dax on trial for the crimes of Curzon.
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Post by Randle-El on Apr 1, 2016 16:32:33 GMT -5
I think it's interesting how religion is such an important and recurring theme in DS9. Obviously you have the Bajoran religion, but there have also been nods to the spiritual beliefs of the Ferengi and the Klingons, as well as to various other aliens. Given this, I think it's rather odd how all the humans seem to be completely secular. In some ways, it's not odd, since Gene Roddenberry was a humanist, and most likely a secular humanist at that. Humans living in the 24th century being irreligious would be a natural consequence of his vision of the future. I just think it's fascinating that every other species seems to be more religious than the humans. Are we to infer that these other cultures are less "advanced" because of their religion?
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Post by dupersuper on Apr 1, 2016 20:06:58 GMT -5
I think it's interesting how religion is such an important and recurring theme in DS9. Obviously you have the Bajoran religion, but there have also been nods to the spiritual beliefs of the Ferengi and the Klingons, as well as to various other aliens. Given this, I think it's rather odd how all the humans seem to be completely secular. In some ways, it's not odd, since Gene Roddenberry was a humanist, and most likely a secular humanist at that. Humans living in the 24th century being irreligious would be a natural consequence of his vision of the future. I just think it's fascinating that every other species seems to be more religious than the humans. Are we to infer that these other cultures are less "advanced" because of their religion? Sisco certainly wouldn't say so...
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Post by SJNeal on Apr 2, 2016 2:07:47 GMT -5
Are we to infer that these other cultures are less "advanced" because of their religion? I think that was exactly Roddenberry's inference. I'd say the Vulcan's were the only other race shown to be on "our level", and not coincidentally, they too had eschewed religion and other illogical concepts (their barbaric cousins the Romulans got stuck bearing the spiritual stuff).
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,864
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Post by shaxper on Apr 2, 2016 8:33:09 GMT -5
I think it's interesting how religion is such an important and recurring theme in DS9. Obviously you have the Bajoran religion, but there have also been nods to the spiritual beliefs of the Ferengi and the Klingons, as well as to various other aliens. Given this, I think it's rather odd how all the humans seem to be completely secular. In some ways, it's not odd, since Gene Roddenberry was a humanist, and most likely a secular humanist at that. Humans living in the 24th century being irreligious would be a natural consequence of his vision of the future. I just think it's fascinating that every other species seems to be more religious than the humans. Are we to infer that these other cultures are less "advanced" because of their religion? I think part of the point if the series, laid out in that first episode, is that there is a contrast between technology and faith, and that both are powerful and worthy of admiration. The Bajorans could build Fighter ships and lasers, but they never made a concerted effort to move off of their home world and explore the galaxy because the orbs were what captured their imaginations -- a different kind of unknown into which to go boldly. So I think there is an acknowledgement that religion tends to inhibit scientific exploration, but not a judgment that religious exploration is a less worthy pursuit.
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