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Post by zaku on Mar 23, 2023 8:02:48 GMT -5
I would not go into the hero business. As has been discussed, fighting crime is a poor options for super powers. Yep. It's like when in real life one is an incredible martial artist or has excellent marksmanship. Why should he have a moral imperative to use his skills to fight crime? On what principle? It is obvious that the suppression of crime is one of the building blocks of a safe society, but if most of the resources and people were dedicated only to that what would you get? A police state.
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Post by kirby101 on Mar 23, 2023 8:06:07 GMT -5
I would not go into the hero business. As has been discussed, fighting crime is a poor options for super powers. Yep. It's like when in real life one is an incredible martial artist or has excellent marksmanship. Why should he have a moral imperative to use his skills to fight crime? On what principle? It is obvious that the suppression of crime is one of the building blocks of a safe society, but if most of the resources and people were dedicated only to that what would you get? A police state. Not to mention, no matter how powerful, there is a limit to what one person can do. On the other hand, improve the lives of people and you will reduce crime more significantly. Those who provide housing, education and jobs do much more to reduce crime than any super hero.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2023 8:22:02 GMT -5
All interesting points! But just to reiterate the question:
"But if you yourself gained powers in the real world and decided to go into the hero business (making the world better to the best of your judgement), would you actually attempt to keep a secret identity? And why or why not?"
So to bring us back around, this conjecture assumes you are in the tights and capes business.
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Post by zaku on Mar 23, 2023 8:26:01 GMT -5
I understand that mindset, about 9/11. When the 2005 bombings happened in London, I think it was natural for people, myself included, to wish we had powers. One tough thing about having powers is justifying off-time to yourself. In the Superman movie, Jor-El told Superman that he was a “resource” of sorts and that he would need some down time - or words to that effect (was this a deleted scene?). How would we handle that in real life? Could you possibly attend to every global disaster? Do you pick and choose? How? Would you feel guilty to wake up and realise that an earthquake occurred in Pakistan while you slept? You may have saved lots of lives during an earthquake in Turkey the week before, but would you kick yourself for going to bed an hour before the earthquake in Pakistan hit? Would you feel guilty if you went on holiday for a week and returned to find that there’d been two bank robberies in your city, that your powers could have dealt with? It’s a tough one. I think you nailed the reality of it. You either become like Samaritan in Astro City trying to get to everything you can, or you live with the weight that every time you choose "down time" for yourself there's a cost. And just having the powers themselves would create this weight, it's not as simple to me as a "choice" like becoming an accountant or coffee barista or whatever for a living. In my mind, that's the bigger significance to the well worn Spidey "with great powers..." line, it's not so much just making a good choice, but the pressure of responsibility has already been thrust upon you whether you like it or not. And you can choose not to go that path, but it may very likely haunt you anyways knowing the implications of your decision. This is a concept I've never understood. Let's assume I was the world champion in weightlifting (the closest thing to a superpower in real life). So would I have, I don't know, the responsibility of carrying people who can't walk or beating up pickpockets? Sure, that would be a nice thing to do, but why should that be a "responsability"? Obviously I would have a responsibility not to use my strength to break the law or abuse the weakest, but that's a responsibility we all have, it's part of the social contract.
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Post by zaku on Mar 23, 2023 8:29:06 GMT -5
All interesting points! But just to reiterate the question: "But if you yourself gained powers in the real world and decided to go into the hero business (making the world better to the best of your judgement), would you actually attempt to keep a secret identity? And why or why not?" So to bring us back around, this conjecture assumes you are in the tights and capes business. What do you mean as "hero", on a practical level? I sit on a gargoyle waiting for a crime? I rescue cats full time? ;-) On the definition of "hero" depends the answer!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2023 8:30:54 GMT -5
I think you nailed the reality of it. You either become like Samaritan in Astro City trying to get to everything you can, or you live with the weight that every time you choose "down time" for yourself there's a cost. And just having the powers themselves would create this weight, it's not as simple to me as a "choice" like becoming an accountant or coffee barista or whatever for a living. In my mind, that's the bigger significance to the well worn Spidey "with great powers..." line, it's not so much just making a good choice, but the pressure of responsibility has already been thrust upon you whether you like it or not. And you can choose not to go that path, but it may very likely haunt you anyways knowing the implications of your decision. This is a concept I've never understood. Let's assume I was the world champion in weightlifting (the closest thing to a superpower in real life). So would I have, I don't know, the responsibility of carrying people who can't walk or beating up pickpockets? Sure, that would be a nice thing to do, but why should that be a "responsability"? Obviously I would have a responsibility not to use my strength to break the law or abuse the weakest, but that's a responsibility we all have, it's part of the social contract. I’m not sure that works. No-one expects a weightlifter to carry disabled people or beat up pickpockets. I’ve never looked at a bodybuilder and thought, ‘He/she should be working as a doorman in a rough part of town.’ I mean, you could take that to illogical extremes. Why isn’t the senior accountant in a firm actually using his knowledge of numbers to teach maths to deprived young folk in a school? No-one expects that, either. With a superhero, it’d be different. The flying guy with speed and super-strength would get a lot of flak about not being in San Andreas during an earthquake. No matter his reasoning (vacation, sleeping, etc), some would demand to know where he was during such a disaster.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2023 8:36:49 GMT -5
I think you nailed the reality of it. You either become like Samaritan in Astro City trying to get to everything you can, or you live with the weight that every time you choose "down time" for yourself there's a cost. And just having the powers themselves would create this weight, it's not as simple to me as a "choice" like becoming an accountant or coffee barista or whatever for a living. In my mind, that's the bigger significance to the well worn Spidey "with great powers..." line, it's not so much just making a good choice, but the pressure of responsibility has already been thrust upon you whether you like it or not. And you can choose not to go that path, but it may very likely haunt you anyways knowing the implications of your decision. Why should he have a moral imperative to use his skills to fight crime? On what principle? It is obvious that the suppression of crime is one of the building blocks of a safe society, but if most of the resources and people were dedicated only to that what would you get? A police state. It's actually a different question. It's not WHY should they have a moral imperative I'd addressing. It's speaking to a very human quality that we can't always "turn off" our feelings no matter how much we may rationalize or try. We can talk big and say we wouldn't "do this or that", but when things become real and the potential for a big choice is thrust upon you, even if you muscle through and say "no, I DON'T have a moral imperative", it doesn't mean that decision won't weigh on you possibly very heavily. This isn't the "going on patrol" version of comic book crimefighting I'm necessarily talking about. What if there's an active shooter in a building, and you can get there faster than police and you have invulnerability. Maybe you are already in the building yourself. You weren't seeking this out when you woke up that morning, but let's say you know for sure you are the best chance to save lives that day. Would you say "no, I don't have a moral imperative". Would you say "no, I only use my powers to build houses for the poor". You COULD say those things, sure. But let's say the active shooter situation then went down REALLY bad. Would you really be able to live with yourself? If you could, you are a stronger person than me.
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Post by zaku on Mar 23, 2023 8:39:22 GMT -5
This is a concept I've never understood. Let's assume I was the world champion in weightlifting (the closest thing to a superpower in real life). So would I have, I don't know, the responsibility of carrying people who can't walk or beating up pickpockets? Sure, that would be a nice thing to do, but why should that be a "responsability"? Obviously I would have a responsibility not to use my strength to break the law or abuse the weakest, but that's a responsibility we all have, it's part of the social contract. I’m not sure that works. No-one expects a weightlifter to carry disabled people or beat up pickpockets. I’ve never looked at a bodybuilder and thought, ‘He/she should be working as a doorman in a rough part of town.’ I mean, you could take that to illogical extremes. Why isn’t the senior accountant in a firm actually using his knowledge of numbers to teach maths to deprived young folk in a school? No-one expects that, either. With a superhero, it’d be different. The flying guy with speed and super-strength would get a lot of flak about not being in San Andreas during an earthquake. No matter his reasoning (vacation, sleeping, etc), some would demand to know where he was during such a disaster. This is another reason why the concept of a "solitary superhero" doesn't make sense. If I was working in some kind of organization, I would delegate these responsibilities to someone who is paid for it. Firefighters who work on the streets don't decide themselves which fire to suppress. There are other people whose job is deciding how to allocate resources.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2023 8:39:55 GMT -5
All interesting points! But just to reiterate the question: "But if you yourself gained powers in the real world and decided to go into the hero business (making the world better to the best of your judgement), would you actually attempt to keep a secret identity? And why or why not?" So to bring us back around, this conjecture assumes you are in the tights and capes business. What do you mean as "hero", on a practical level? I sit on a gargoyle waiting for a crime? I rescue cats full time? ;-) On the definition of "hero" depends the answer! I think my answer above may help with that. But I think you probably know I was talking about traditional "comic book superhero" type activity, right? Come on guys, love the philosophy but you know the spirit of the question. If you go stop bank robbers for a living, mask on or off. Think more like a 12 year old, it's healthier.
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Post by Cei-U! on Mar 23, 2023 8:41:12 GMT -5
All interesting points! But just to reiterate the question: "But if you yourself gained powers in the real world and decided to go into the hero business (making the world better to the best of your judgement), would you actually attempt to keep a secret identity? And why or why not?" So to bring us back around, this conjecture assumes you are in the tights and capes business. If I did have superpowers, the very last thing I would do is don tights and a cape. Assuming I'm not in the military or belong to a law enforcement agency that requires a uniform, I'm gonna wear street clothes because A) such an outfit is impractical at best and B) I'm not retarded.
To address another point raised above, does a doctor feel guilty because he can't heal every sick person on Earth? Does a policeman agonize over the criminals in other cities, states, or countries he can't personally apprehend? Then neither would I, as a "super-hero" beat myself up because I can't save everybody, especially if, as I postulated earlier, it was my actual means of livelihood. Like anyone in these lines of work, I'm entitled to downtime and a personal life. I guess I'm not sufficiently idealistic or altruistic to live up to the "great power = great responsibility" mantra and you know what? I'm fine with it.
Cei-U! I summon the harsh reality!
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Post by zaku on Mar 23, 2023 8:54:52 GMT -5
Why should he have a moral imperative to use his skills to fight crime? On what principle? It is obvious that the suppression of crime is one of the building blocks of a safe society, but if most of the resources and people were dedicated only to that what would you get? A police state. It's actually a different question. It's not WHY should they have a moral imperative I'd addressing. It's speaking to a very human quality that we can't always "turn off" our feelings no matter how much we may rationalize or try. We can talk big and say we wouldn't "do this or that", but when things become real and the potential for a big choice is thrust upon you, even if you muscle through and say "no, I DON'T have a moral imperative", it doesn't mean that decision won't weigh on you possibly very heavily. This isn't the "going on patrol" version of comic book crimefighting I'm necessarily talking about. What if there's an active shooter in a building, and you can get there faster than police and you have invulnerability. Maybe you are already in the building yourself. You weren't seeking this out when you woke up that morning, but let's say you know for sure you are the best chance to save lives that day. Would you say "no, I don't have a moral imperative". Would you say "no, I only use my powers to build houses for the poor". You COULD say those things, sure. But let's say the active shooter situation then went down REALLY bad. Would you really be able to live with yourself? If you could, you are a stronger person than me. If this imaginary hero feels guilty about not helping others, so be it. If everyone thought like this the world would be a better place But the word "responsibility" has an objective quality. Doctors have responsibilities. Cops have responsibilities. Politicians have responsibilities (even if they don't want to follow them). They have chosen activities that bring with them responsibilities. But simply having "power" does not automatically imply "responsibility". Because if that were the case we would all have responsibilities. I mean, I'm sure most people could set aside an hour a week to volunteer at a homeless soup kitchen. It is a "power" within everyone's reach. And it would be nice if they did. But would it be a "responsibility"?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2023 8:58:49 GMT -5
It's actually a different question. It's not WHY should they have a moral imperative I'd addressing. It's speaking to a very human quality that we can't always "turn off" our feelings no matter how much we may rationalize or try. We can talk big and say we wouldn't "do this or that", but when things become real and the potential for a big choice is thrust upon you, even if you muscle through and say "no, I DON'T have a moral imperative", it doesn't mean that decision won't weigh on you possibly very heavily. This isn't the "going on patrol" version of comic book crimefighting I'm necessarily talking about. What if there's an active shooter in a building, and you can get there faster than police and you have invulnerability. Maybe you are already in the building yourself. You weren't seeking this out when you woke up that morning, but let's say you know for sure you are the best chance to save lives that day. Would you say "no, I don't have a moral imperative". Would you say "no, I only use my powers to build houses for the poor". You COULD say those things, sure. But let's say the active shooter situation then went down REALLY bad. Would you really be able to live with yourself? If you could, you are a stronger person than me. If this imaginary hero feels guilty about not helping others, so be it. If everyone thought like this the world would be a better place But the word "responsibility" has an objective quality. Doctors have responsibilities. Cops have responsibilities. Politicians have responsibilities (even if they don't want to follow them). They have chosen activities that bring with them responsibilities. But simply having "power" does not automatically imply "responsibility". Because if that were the case we would all have responsibilities. I mean, I'm sure most people could set aside an hour a week to volunteer at a homeless soup kitchen. It is a "power" within everyone's reach. And it would be nice if they did. But would it be a "responsibility"? But my statement wasn't about "responsibility". It was a very simple question of what would you do in that situation.
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Post by zaku on Mar 23, 2023 8:59:30 GMT -5
Like anyone in these lines of work, I'm entitled to downtime and a personal life. I guess I'm not sufficiently idealistic or altruistic to live up to the "great power = great responsibility" mantra and you know what? I'm fine with it. I vividly remember a Peter David story where a character asked Spider-Man why the equation "Great Power = Great Responsibility" should be true and Spidey actually didn't know what to answer, because it was a question he'd never really asked himself before. What he actually feels is not the weight of responsibility, but of guilt! Do you happen to remember what story it was…? (yes I know it's the proverbial needle in a haystack...)
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Post by zaku on Mar 23, 2023 9:01:27 GMT -5
If this imaginary hero feels guilty about not helping others, so be it. If everyone thought like this the world would be a better place But the word "responsibility" has an objective quality. Doctors have responsibilities. Cops have responsibilities. Politicians have responsibilities (even if they don't want to follow them). They have chosen activities that bring with them responsibilities. But simply having "power" does not automatically imply "responsibility". Because if that were the case we would all have responsibilities. I mean, I'm sure most people could set aside an hour a week to volunteer at a homeless soup kitchen. It is a "power" within everyone's reach. And it would be nice if they did. But would it be a "responsibility"? But my statement wasn't about "responsibility". It was a very simple question of what would you do in that situation. Like, what if I had real superpowers? After doing a test flight for fun, I'd do anything to get rid of them! It would be like having a loaded gun in the house that I never asked for!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2023 9:03:52 GMT -5
But my statement wasn't about "responsibility". It was a very simple question of what would you do in that situation. Like, what if I had real superpowers? After doing a test flight for fun, I'd do anything to get rid of them! It would be like having a loaded gun in the house that I never asked for! Nope, the active shooter situation specifically.
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