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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2023 4:15:50 GMT -5
Some people have a natural moral leaning toward helping society by fighting its worst, most destructive instinct / action: criminality.
I fully agree. Despite my many attempts to steer this thread away from rationalization of even being in the heroing business in the real world, I fear it's a lost cause so I plan to abandon ship and leave this thread to the Wild West. Again, thank you to those who engaged in the topic, I thought that part was interesting discussion. But before I go, I'd like to make a statement on why I've been so fussy about not wandering too far from the actual topic. You can't discuss some of the "why even be a crime fighter" (one individual has now said that 4 times in this thread) without it taking on a political nature. You inevitably wander into controversial territory such as police defunding, current military strife in the world, and other topics that will quickly go off the rails (and it will be the usual same group of a few folks high fiving each other while many others are stunned that even flies here). Sorry to call out the elephant in the room, but it needs to be said. Perhaps it's my fault, I "do" think of some of these questions more like a kid just having some simple light-hearted fun. To be honest though, I never assumed someone would actually rationalize the whole reality of superheroes in the actual world, to me that seems much sillier since OF COURSE it would not play out like the comic books. I didn't think any of that needed to be explained...it was literally just "if fiction was real", what would you do? Which implicitly means ain't never gonna happen, just relax and flow with the spirit of the question if you're in the mood to have a little light fun. Anyhow, that's all I had to say. I do agree with and understand the desire to ask light-hearted questions, with more of a fun aspect to them. I do think it’s something that I aspire to. I’m sorry to keep being that guy who brings up wrestling, but I sometimes find that, in the real world, particularly among wrestling ‘journalists’, there’s a tendency to get hung up on deathly serious topics about workrate, how convincing a move is, etc. This forgets how many of us got into wrestling as kids. Personally, as a kid, I wasn’t interested in ‘workrate’ (a word I doubt I knew anyway) and serious stuff, I just wanted to ask, “Will Hulk Hogan be able to slam Andre the Giant?” Applying deep critical analysis to a scripted quasi-sport, where colourful characters throw each other around a ring, seems peculiar at times, even though I have no doubt fallen into that trap at times. I believe it’s good to be light-hearted and not get too cynical (not stating others should do the same). Flowing with the spirit of the question and trying to have a little light fun is a commendable and achievable aim. We could pick apart anything, really. One could ask why supervillains spend time robbing banks despite obviously having enough funds in the first place to build giant robots. But maybe just go with the flow and enjoy Luthor’s giant robot grabbing some bank loot.
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Post by kirby101 on Mar 27, 2023 7:57:47 GMT -5
But before I go, I'd like to make a statement on why I've been so fussy about not wandering too far from the actual topic. You can't discuss some of the "why even be a crime fighter" (one individual has now said that 4 times in this thread) without it taking on a political nature. You inevitably wander into controversial territory such as police defunding, current military strife in the world, and other topics that will quickly go off the rails (and it will be the usual same group of a few folks high fiving each other while many others are stunned that even flies here). Sorry to call out the elephant in the room, but it needs to be said. But the premise of this thread you started was real world. So how would we answer this without taking in real world considerations. So for the fifth time I will say that fighting street level crime with super powers is a waste of them and idiotic. And not for any political reason (which I agree can get dicey) . The NYPD has almost 40,000 officers. How much of an impact one more person, even with super powers, could have is minimal to nonexistent. Go and do good, but fighting crime is just an excuse to beat people up.
Discussing super powers and secret identities within the context of comic book universes would be different.
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Post by commond on Mar 27, 2023 8:24:05 GMT -5
I don't understand the argument that a superhero shouldn't fight crime because we already have police officers. Are you trying to say that a person with superhuman powers couldn't prevent murders from happening or mass shootings? What about terrorist attacks or bombings? Obviously, a superhero with Superman-like powers would be of more use dealing with problems on a global level like wars, famine and natural disasters, but I don't understand why fighting crime is worthless.
Personally, this whole "superheroes in the real world" has been done to death. If you like superheroes, read Astro City. If you don't like superheroes, read The Boys.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 27, 2023 8:37:08 GMT -5
Ehi! Do you remember this scene? I had never seen it, but I love it! I didn't know Johnny knew Peter on a personal basis, though. So many comics I never read...
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Post by kirby101 on Mar 27, 2023 8:52:41 GMT -5
I don't understand the argument that a superhero shouldn't fight crime because we already have police officers. Are you trying to say that a person with superhuman powers couldn't prevent murders from happening or mass shootings? What about terrorist attacks or bombings? Obviously, a superhero with Superman-like powers would be of more use dealing with problems on a global level like wars, famine and natural disasters, but I don't understand why fighting crime is worthless. Personally, this whole "superheroes in the real world" has been done to death. If you like superheroes, read Astro City. If you don't like superheroes, read The Boys. Because they would have little effect. The ones in New York with 8 million people and hundreds of crimes a day, stop one or two crimes when they go out. They can only be so many places. Meanwhile there are thousands of police officers patrolling the streets, and in the real world, how do you stop murders? Unless they are psychic, you know after it happens. It's just an impractical use of power. Now stopping terroists or mass shooters, sure, but again unless you have super speed to get someplace....
And they restrict themselves to street level crimes. You stop a mugger but ignore white collar criminals who might destroy thousands of lives.
Wow, you stopped someone from stealing a purse, but the Sacklers get away with causing the death of thousands of people. Good job.
As I said, raise people out of poverty and you will stop more crime than patrolling some small area of the city.
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Post by arfetto on Mar 27, 2023 9:13:13 GMT -5
It sound interesting! I don't know if there is a comic out there that truly realistically tells what could happen if someone decides to put on a colorful costume and fight crime. Probably because in reality someone like that would end up very bad already on the first night on patrol. Yes, I think people generally think it is not a worthwhile concept because they figure the only end result of the story is like that Alan Davis short comic haha.
Elsewhere in this thread it was mentioned that superhero comics in the real world has been done to death, and I thought this as well when I first started looking around, but I think that only goes for "super powered" heroes and not street level types without powers. I could not find a comic based on the real world superhero "movement" (haha) that existed in our actual reality so decided to entertain the idea as a challenge (I am sure such a comic exists, but I just can't find it). It makes sense that things would usually end badly for someone on their first night on patrol, but even in the real world sometimes their first attempt has not ended badly for those people. Eventually things seem to end poorly for them though (the most popular person in the "real world superhero movement", for example, went from driving off car thieves to acclaim to getting arrested for selling MDMA and having on his person cocaine). There is a kind of popular youtuber who makes comic videos who used to be a "real world" superhero for a brief while haha, and he was never charged for his vigilantism.
As for the effectiveness of their efforts, well, for a comic it is more interesting to look at the personalities themselves and how a person even ends up in this position.
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Post by Dizzy D on Mar 27, 2023 11:13:05 GMT -5
If I'd ever get superpowers, I'd have no clue how to even start fighting crime (unless I had very specific powers like that crime-sense power in Unbreakable). Crime has been down in my country since the 90s (as it has in most places), armed robberies are rare, murders are about half the time family/relationship-related, most crime seems to be vandalism, cyber-crime and property theft (and as this is the Netherlands, that last one mostly means stolen bikes). Really not something that Dizzy Daredevil can do much about.
I think I'd have to have some pretty high-end superpowers to even detect any crimes and once you get to those level of powers, using them anonymously would be relatively easy (as in nobody would even know that you interfered). In that case a secret identity wouldn't even be necessary.
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Post by zaku on Mar 27, 2023 11:32:52 GMT -5
It sound interesting! I don't know if there is a comic out there that truly realistically tells what could happen if someone decides to put on a colorful costume and fight crime. Probably because in reality someone like that would end up very bad already on the first night on patrol. Elsewhere in this thread it was mentioned that superhero comics in the real world has been done to death, and I thought this as well when I first started looking around, but I think that only goes for "super powered" heroes and not street level types without powers. I could not find a comic based on the real world superhero "movement" (haha) that existed in our actual reality so decided to entertain the idea as a challenge (I am sure such a comic exists, but I just can't find it). It makes sense that things would usually end badly for someone on their first night on patrol, but even in the real world sometimes their first attempt has not ended badly for those people. Eventually things seem to end poorly for them though (the most popular person in the "real world superhero movement", for example, went from driving off car thieves to acclaim to getting arrested for selling MDMA and having on his person cocaine). There is a kind of popular youtuber who makes comic videos who used to be a "real world" superhero for a brief while haha, and he was never charged for his vigilantism.
I vaguely remember something about comic book about a female "real superhero"... I'll looking for that!
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Post by tarkintino on Mar 27, 2023 11:45:22 GMT -5
I don't know if there is a comic out there that truly realistically tells what could happen if someone decides to put on a colorful costume and fight crime. Probably because in reality someone like that would end up very bad already on the first night on patrol. You have to consider the responsible superpowered individuals would know they need (at the very least) training in self-defense so they're not flying into walls or/and knowing how to limit or use their strikes to avoid using deadly force. Comics speak in shorthand, so how one takes to the life of a crimefighter is something rarely explored with much detail, but in the real world, a responsible person suddenly finding himself superpowered would learn (formally) the basics of investigation so they're not trampling on citizens' rights, or wasting time following false leads, etc. Contrary to the jump to predict failure for everyone, there are some people not brainwashed by pop cultural material, and would see the inherent risk--to self and all around you--of becoming a crimefighter, and seriously consider what he would need to even take a single step in that direction.
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Post by Cei-U! on Mar 27, 2023 14:28:20 GMT -5
There is no room in a civilized society with a functioning (however imperfectly) justice system for vigilantism. Individuals not trained and sanctioned by the government should not be patrolling the streets and assaulting people they think are committing a criminal act. At best, you're setting yourself up for a helluva lawsuit. At worst (assuming you don't get killed or crippled), you're looking at a lengthy prison term. As I suggested earlier in the thread, if you do have super-powers and you want to help in the war on crime, become a consultant to law enforcement and help them when requested so you're acting within the law.
Cei-U! That's how I see it anyway!
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Post by zaku on Mar 27, 2023 15:01:19 GMT -5
There is no room in a civilized society with a functioning (however imperfectly) justice system for vigilantism. Individuals not trained and sanctioned by the government should not be patrolling the streets and assaulting people they think are committing a criminal act. At best, you're setting yourself up for a helluva lawsuit. At worst (assuming you don't get killed or crippled), you're looking at a lengthy prison term. As I suggested earlier in the thread, if you do have super-powers and you want to help in the war on crime, become a consultant to law enforcement and help them when requested so you're acting within the law. Cei-U! That's how I see it anyway! Ehi, remember this story were the people who exactly said this were portrayed as the bad guys?
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Post by Cei-U! on Mar 27, 2023 16:30:21 GMT -5
There is no room in a civilized society with a functioning (however imperfectly) justice system for vigilantism. Individuals not trained and sanctioned by the government should not be patrolling the streets and assaulting people they think are committing a criminal act. At best, you're setting yourself up for a helluva lawsuit. At worst (assuming you don't get killed or crippled), you're looking at a lengthy prison term. As I suggested earlier in the thread, if you do have super-powers and you want to help in the war on crime, become a consultant to law enforcement and help them when requested so you're acting within the law. Cei-U! That's how I see it anyway! Ehi, remember this story were the people who exactly said this were portrayed as the bad guys? I've never read Civil War, nor have I ever wanted to. When they "adapted" it for the MCU, the screenwriters had the good sense to portray each side as being both right and wrong, a level of nuance I assume the comic didn't even try to achieve.
Cei-U! I summon the hard pass!
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Post by Prince Hal on Mar 27, 2023 16:41:32 GMT -5
So many differences between the world of comic books and the real world.
Like fer instance, in the DC world of the 40s, 50s, 60s and maybe even the 70s, heroes go on patrol every night. And that nightly patrol includes their sidekicks, who then have to get to their junior high or high school classes the next day. In elaborately designed automobiles, planes, copters, and even boats. Or by just flying around. With the full co-operation and permission of the police. They catch bank robbers, jewel thieves, fur thieves, and assorted racketeers. Frequently heard interjections include "Great Scott!," "Golly!" and "By Jove!"
At Marvel in the 60s, not so much. Most heroes -- maybe all of them? -- just seem to stumble into plots and crimes undertaken by super-villains, many of the cosmic type. Very few thugs, molls, gangsters, hoods or criminals of the cowardly lot type. Constant destruction to New York City that is immediately repaired. Cops display a generally worshipful attitude to the heroes. Fewer interjections, unless you're reading Dr. Strange screaming "By the hoary hosts of Hoggoth!" and more "streetwise" direct addressing, like" "Mister," "Squirt" and "Chuckles."
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Post by commond on Mar 27, 2023 17:01:05 GMT -5
Street level heroes typically act outside the law and are often at odds with law enforcement, so nothing much would change there. A real life superhero could be the subject of fierce public debate and probably wanted by the FBI. I don't think the hero would need to patrol about. They could actively hunt criminals. Naturally, they would be a vigilante, but not every member of the public would be against that, and they would no doubt have some support from higher places as well. Realistically, they'd probably end up dead or in jail, but there's a chance their actions would be condoned if they did enough good.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 27, 2023 23:25:47 GMT -5
I don't understand the argument that a superhero shouldn't fight crime because we already have police officers. Are you trying to say that a person with superhuman powers couldn't prevent murders from happening or mass shootings? What about terrorist attacks or bombings? Obviously, a superhero with Superman-like powers would be of more use dealing with problems on a global level like wars, famine and natural disasters, but I don't understand why fighting crime is worthless. Personally, this whole "superheroes in the real world" has been done to death. If you like superheroes, read Astro City. If you don't like superheroes, read The Boys. Or Marshal Law.
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