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Post by tingramretro on Apr 17, 2016 5:01:08 GMT -5
I psrsonally hated Claremont's run, and would only really qualify Mark Millar as "top shelf" in that, in British newsagents, the top shelf is where they keep the porno magazines... I didn't like Claremonts run either but He WAS considered to be a top writer . There was one particular issue which for some never explained reason began with Sue sparring with Namor in a kind of FF Danger Room. I read that scene, then reread it, then actually wrote out the dialogue on a sheet of paper and read it without the visuals. And it was immediately apparent to me that the characters who should have been on that page were Jean Grey and Wolverine. I dropped the book soon after that.
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Post by Bronze age andy on Apr 17, 2016 7:27:15 GMT -5
Claremont's run on FF was...okay, but...felt like an Excalibur reboot.
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 17, 2016 7:43:31 GMT -5
Claremont's run on FF was...okay, but...felt like an Excalibur reboot. I never really liked Claremonts writing. Too much Dialogue over explaining the events on the page and during his run on the FF, He seemed to try to recycle the X-men Villains.
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Post by tingramretro on Apr 17, 2016 8:44:19 GMT -5
Claremont's run on FF was...okay, but...felt like an Excalibur reboot. I never really liked Claremonts writing. Too much Dialogue over explaining the events on the page and during his run on the FF, He seemed to try to recycle the X-men Villains. That reminds me, he also totally screwed up the continuity of the Technet n that FF run, characters whose story had previously been conclusively concluded in Excalibur by Alan Davis after Claremont left the book.
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 17, 2016 12:28:36 GMT -5
I have the compete run in that second volume. It was a weird series. It didn't feel like the FF.
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Post by tolworthy on Apr 17, 2016 15:18:11 GMT -5
There was one particular issue which for some never explained reason began with Sue sparring with Namor in a kind of FF Danger Room. I read that scene, then reread it, then actually wrote out the dialogue on a sheet of paper and read it without the visuals. And it was immediately apparent to me that the characters who should have been on that page were Jean Grey and Wolverine. I dropped the book soon after that. I would take that as a jumping off point for a new theory. I think he is worth the mental gymnastics. I like walls of text, I like continuity, and I love how he tried to rescue the team. E.g. when he arrived Ben and Johnny were being written as idiot teenagers and he immediately tried to establish them as adults again. As for Sue, I think Claremont tried to rescue her as well. I have a minority view of Sue Storm. I think she has always been the strongest and most rounded character. If we ignore the issues that Stan Lee plotted her on his own (103-115 and 120-123*), where she faints almost every issue, then we see something interesting. Before Byrne arrived Sue was always the most effective character, the one who made the most decisions (rather than simply reacting to events), the most insightful, the least likely to faint (seriously: count the times: Reed and Ben faint more than her if we discount those Stan issues), the most creative with her powers (apart from Johnny in the first 20 issues of so: he lost abilities while Sue gained them), the one who suffered the least, and so on. She was always the strongest and most interesting character (except for those Stan issues). But I think Byrne weakened her. He did not add to her physical power (everything Sue did under Byrne had been done before) but instead removed her soft power: her ability to get things done on the larger scale. Then Byrne spent the second half of his run torturing her. I think this ineffective "big boobs and ass kicking" Sue continued thereafter, with the notable exception of the Englehart issues. I give Claremont great credit for trying to give her depth again. The only way he knew to do that was to write the book like the X-Men, but I think that was a small price to pay. As I said, most would disagree, but that is how I read the story. * Jerry Conway probably plotted 124-5. Given the evidence that Stan was making changes to Kirby's plots as early as issue 3, it could be argued that Stan Lee only plotted 18 issues of the Fantastic Four.And that is if we include "The Last Fantastic Four Story" from 2007.
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 17, 2016 18:47:44 GMT -5
Interesting theory. You DO have to count the Lee written issues, you know. But those types of stories are a product of the times. Women being too weak to do anything but be captured was the norm before the 80's.
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Post by tolworthy on Apr 17, 2016 20:43:44 GMT -5
You DO have to count the Lee written issues, you know. I agree. But I think it is interesting to compare Lee to the others. The difference is stark. But those types of stories are a product of the times. Women being too weak to do anything but be captured was the norm before the 80's. I agree that was the norm until the early 1970s, and it was true of Stan Lee. But as far as I can see, every other creator (on the FF) shows women as the equal of men. There are numerous examples of Kirby drawing Sue defeating villains on her own, but then Stan would add dialog that contradicted the images, saying "I learned this punch from Reed" or "if only Reed were here". For details, I have a page on my site comparing how Lee and Kirby portray women. I see a tension between Lee and every other FF plotter or writer, over whether men and women are equals. Lee always wrote them as unequal. But as soon as Lee released the reins even slightly, the very next issue would show women and men as equals in some dramatic fashion. And every time Lee returned, that very same issue would show women as helpless inferiors. For example: FF 103: the first non-Kirby issue, and the story immediately revolves around Sue and Dorma as hostages. And so it continues as long as Stan is both plotter and writer, with Sue fainting, being a hostage, acting as helpless secretary, etc., until... FF 116: the first time Lee is not listed as writer. all the men are defeated and it is up to Sue to save them. The next story is about Crystal's great power. When Stan returns we are back to Sue fainting and being rescued by Reed, until... FF 124: the first plotted by Gerry Conway (uncredited): the very first frame shows Reed falling out of the sky. Lee simply never showed the male hero being weak. Yes, sometimes mind controlled and "more dangerous than ever", but for Lee the male was always the stronger one. But Conway makes the point of having Reed lie in a hospital bed with exhaustion for most of the story, and Sue solves the problem without him, but again Stan's dialog makes it look like Reed was special (the art shows he was actually not needed at all) FF 126: the first Roy Thomas issue. The splash pages has Reed IMAGINING Sue as helpless, but the rest of the story is where Sue starts to assert her independence: the marital strife begins here, and it is all led by Sue, who will be the one to leave and finally file divorce papers. Reed will fall apart without her. FF 129: the first completely Stan-free story, with Thomas as both writer and editor. And what do we see? he does not waste a single page: the cover introduces Thundra, the woman who can beat any man, and has Thundra and Medusa dominating Ben Grimm. I could give other examples, but it seems to me that all but one FF plotter wanted to show the women as equal to the men. The exception was Stan Lee who was pulling in the other direction.
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Post by String on Apr 18, 2016 21:00:40 GMT -5
Claremont's run on FF was...okay, but...felt like an Excalibur reboot. I never really liked Claremonts writing. Too much Dialogue over explaining the events on the page and during his run on the FF, He seemed to try to recycle the X-men Villains. It's soap opera which is what he did to make the X-franchise so huge; the relationships, the drama, the angst, the conflict. The difference, I think, is that in X-Men, he had a larger cast to influence and contrast whereas with FF, he only had the essential family. I liked the elements of the X-world that he brought into the book, it's a aspect of the MU that frankly they rarely deal with. I think it was around #10-12 where they were mind-swapped and trapped on Genosha trying to escape and reclaim their lives, to me at that time, it showed their views and outlook on the mutant slave revolt which I've never seen before then. I thought Technet was a good and different foe for them, they had a valid reason for encountering them, and the story really showed the depths and limits of Sue protecting Franklin and how Franklin, fearful of losing his parents again, strove to ensure that wouldn't happen however he could even with his powers in check. In a way, Claremont took the family out of their semi-normal comfort zone, trying for something different which I can't fault him for attempting.
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Post by Hoosier X on Dec 19, 2020 22:19:14 GMT -5
I thought I would resurrect this thread because … I'm thinking of starting with Fantastic Four #1 and reading Kirby/Lee Fantastic Four until I run out of issues.
I think I've said elsewhere that one of my favorite runs of all time is FF #36 to #60, and even up to #92 with only a few missteps here and there. Well, I have the Marvel Masterworks volumes for FF #1 to #50. And I've been thinking of getting the Fantastic Four Epic collection that reprints #52 to #67. I think. Something like that.
It's so strange that I don't have those issues in some format! I used to have FF #51 to #116 but I sold them to help pay for college. And I haven't read most of them since then.
And even when I had them, I never read them from start to finish! I just never got around to it.
It's something I've been thinking of doing for a while. So I'm going to get the Epic collection for FF #52 to #67 the next time I'm near the comic book store in Claremont and I'm hoping to start this little project in the next few weeks.
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Post by tolworthy on Dec 20, 2020 3:29:16 GMT -5
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Post by Hoosier X on Dec 20, 2020 6:28:06 GMT -5
I had not heard of this, but the timing seems right. I’ll be reading more than one issue a week but it still sounds like fun and I can join in.
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Post by Icctrombone on Dec 20, 2020 7:19:17 GMT -5
I joined just now. I think I can handle 1 issue a week.
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Post by beccabear67 on Dec 20, 2020 13:41:15 GMT -5
I have three True Believers in the 'to read' pile which reprint FF #52, 53 and 65. I've read issues surrounding them and then some in the past but never have read these three. Jack Kirby was an ideas machine still during this era!
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Post by berkley on Dec 20, 2020 14:10:20 GMT -5
The FF read-through is a great idea but I'm not quite ready for it yet. It's something I've been planning to do on my own anyway but probably not for another year or two, after I fnish reading some of the 50s stuff I've been doing lately.
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