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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2023 15:26:58 GMT -5
Although one can inadvertently venture into comparing apples and oranges, I do believe there can be some comparisons made between Secret Wars and Super Powers (1984). I mean, on a superficial level, both tied in with toylines.
(And there should have been a federal law, requiring all action figures to be accompanied by a mini-comic drawn by José Luis García-López)
Out of the two, Super Powers is my favourite. Secret Wars is enjoyable, but I can’t rate it with the enthusiasm I would like to. There’s not much inherently wrong with it other than one or two things, but it just left me feeling unfulfilled, no matter how many times I have read it.
What’s the problem? Well, that’s what I hope to discuss here. I feel Super Powers is more “organic”. Now, that is an odd statement to type. All comic characters and stories require creators to “breathe life” into them, and nothing makes one more “organic” than another. It’s all in the execution, I guess. Some comics leave us feeling fulfilled, others leave us feeling flat. It’s always subjective, of course. Personally, I never cared for Gambit, but I realise that he has his fans.
Despite Secret Wars obviously having a story, and some important moments, not to mention the ramifications after the series ended, it does feel that some characters are “spare parts”. Example: The Lizard. Does he do much? Does he say much? Does he do anything? Do Doom and Octopus really have any interaction that stands out? At times, the story felt like a random collection of heroes and villains. In an odd way, the whole feels greater than the sum of its parts. I can remember the really big stuff, but not the smaller stuff.
And while thinking about “spare parts”, I think any story that features interchangeable characters is problematic for me. The Lizard could quite easily have been replaced by Shocker. Or Scorpion. Or Blizzard. And with no noticeable changes. On the heroes’ side, there’s a little more cohesion, but I honestly believe that you could have swapped Hawkeye for Daredevil. Or had Falcon replace the Wasp. Of course, I realise that it was a toy tie-in, and at the end of the day, that was what was paramount.
I also realise a similar argument could be made regarding Super Powers. Penguin could have been replaced by Riddler. Hawkman could have been replaced by Adam Strange. I get that.
However, it did feel more “organic”. In the first issue, Luther, Brainiac, Joker and Penguin play important roles when Darkseid’s Emissaries of Doom give them powers. There’s a bit of depth and character development, far more than the likes of Lizard and Klaw got. For me, Super Powers succeeds in being both a cosmic epic (a fun one!) and one that makes each character count. I don’t feel there are any “spare parts” in that story, each hero and villain playing a role as it all comes together. And with a lot more memorable moments.
Secret Wars cannot make that claim (in my humble opinion, of course). It’s a fun, rip-roaring adventure that does have consequences and ramifications. It just feels flat. It feels like quite a few characters weren’t used to their full potential. As far as I am concerned, Super Powers managed to be BOTH a fun tie-in, with some memorable moments, while Secret Wars is almost akin to fast food: it’s fun while it lasts, and there is some enjoyment to be had, but it left no lasting impression, and is the story that I’d return to the least.
What do you think?
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 23, 2023 15:49:29 GMT -5
Despite Secret Wars obviously having a story, and some important moments, not to mention the ramifications after the series ended, it does feel that some characters are “spare parts”. Example: The Lizard. Does he do much? Does he say much? Does he do anything? Do Doom and Octopus really have any interaction that stands out? At times, the story felt like a random collection of heroes and villains. In an odd way, the whole feels greater than the sum of its parts. I can remember the really big stuff, but not the smaller stuff. What ramifications? Spider-Man had a black costume for a short time and The Thing was on an alien planet having badly written adventures for a short time. That was pretty much it. The saving grace to Super Powers is that it didn't pretend to be anything more than an attempt to tie funnybooks to a toy line. Secret Wars was just a worthless cash grab.
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Post by tonebone on Feb 23, 2023 15:49:39 GMT -5
Between the two series, I was all-in for Secret Wars, and put off by Kirby's art on Super Powers. Yes, even at the time, I knew he was a legend, but his art on that series was not his best, by any stretch of the imagination. Secret Wars had Mike Zeck, and teased (and fulfilled) some actual changes to the characters. They might not have lasted forever (thank God), but there were changes. I felt like Super Powers was outside of continuity and didn't "matter" (this was important to me at the time).
As far as the action figures go... didn't care... I was in high school, and hadn't bought an action figure in forever. I do concede that the Super Powers action figures are superior, in hindsight.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2023 15:51:26 GMT -5
Despite Secret Wars obviously having a story, and some important moments, not to mention the ramifications after the series ended, it does feel that some characters are “spare parts”. Example: The Lizard. Does he do much? Does he say much? Does he do anything? Do Doom and Octopus really have any interaction that stands out? At times, the story felt like a random collection of heroes and villains. In an odd way, the whole feels greater than the sum of its parts. I can remember the really big stuff, but not the smaller stuff. What ramifications? Spider-Man had a black costume for a short time and The Thing was on an alien planet having badly written adventures for a short time. That was pretty much it. The saving grace to Super Powers is that it didn't pretend to be anything more than an attempt to tie funnybooks to a toy line. Secret Wars was just a worthless cash grab. I guess the answer is, the two ramifications you just named. Not that any ramification needs to be permanent. Hopefully, my original post didn’t make any claim that ramifications were earth-shattering or permanent. They were, as you show, short-term ones.
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Post by commond on Feb 23, 2023 18:15:44 GMT -5
Secret Wars also led to Colossus and Kitty Pryde breaking up.
I thought Secret Wars did a pretty decent job of maintaining the status quo of the ongoing titles within the crossover event instead of completely ignoring what as happening in the monthly books, although strangely the heroes return to Earth is a complete mess with each of the monthly books contradicting each other.
It's interesting that DC trounced Marvel in toy sales.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,051
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Post by Confessor on Feb 23, 2023 20:19:40 GMT -5
I don't think you should try to evaluate the worth of Secret Wars, unless you're doing so through the eyes of 7-14yo boys, which were its target audience. Otherwise you're always gonna be missing a trick. Sure, we can discuss the quality of its plot, scripting and art, along with its overall worth, as adults. But unless we also take into account how it was received by young lads at the time, you're not gonna get the full picture.
Myself, I was 11 or 12 as SW was coming out, and as a result I have a real big soft spot for it. The fact that it was conceived as a way to sell tie-in toys made no difference to me at the time. In fact, the toy line just kind of made it cooler (although I was moving out of the age where I bought action figures and so didn't pick up any of them). Besides, Super Powers was designed to get action figure fans into buying comics and visa versa, let's not forget.
But the thing with Secret Wars for me was that, back then, it seemed like a really exciting event, in the days before such "events" became commonplace. It felt like you were reading something important, something that really mattered to the continuity of the Marvel Universe. Of course, as it turned out, it was mostly the "illusion of change" rather than real change to the status quo – Spidey's new suit, the Thing temporarily leaving the Fantastic Four, and the introduction of Titania and the new Spider-Woman (Julia Carpenter) notwithstanding.
Yes, Secret Wars was pretty thin on plot, and the simple premise of heroes and villains teleported from Earth to the Beyonder's Battleworld to do nothing more than have a big fight feels like something straight out of a '60s episode of Star Trek, but I don't care! Secret Wars was just big, dumb superhero fun and 11-year-old me loved it! So, in terms of its target audience, it was pretty perfect, I reckon.
As for Super Powers, I don't remember ever hearing about it at the time (was it even published in the UK, like SW was?). Even nowadays, I know very little about the series.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 23, 2023 20:56:07 GMT -5
I don't think you should try to evaluate the worth of Secret Wars, unless you're doing so through the eyes of 7-14yo boys, which were its target audience. Otherwise you're always gonna be missing a trick. Sure, we can discuss the quality of its plot, scripting and art, along with its overall worth, as adults. But unless we also take into account how it was received by young lads at the time, you're not gonna get the full picture. Myself, I was 11 or 12 as SW was coming out, and as a result I have a real big soft spot for it. The fact that it was conceived as a way to sell tie-in toys made no difference to me at the time. In fact, the toy line just kind of made it cooler (although I was moving out of the age where I bought action figures and so didn't pick up any of them). I guess that at 17 I was too old to appreciate it. All I know is that I was reaching a completist phase in my collecting and I quit in the middle of a mini-series, which was something I absolutely would not have done at that time unless the book was utter garbage.
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Post by badwolf on Feb 23, 2023 21:08:28 GMT -5
I guess the reformation of the Molecule Man was another ramification, although I think that began in an Avengers story.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2023 21:22:04 GMT -5
Secret Wars was just too long to fill 12 issues. I was excited for it as an event maybe because I was still young and the whole toy line connection and "event" sales pitch of it appealed to me (and that cover on the first issue was such a hook), and while I still have some nice nostaglic feelings, truthfully it was a slog by the end (well, maybe well before that). They also "killed off" (or so I thought at the time) my favorite villain of all time Kang way too early IMO, I would have loved for him to have had an actually important role in it.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,051
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Post by Confessor on Feb 23, 2023 21:47:23 GMT -5
I don't think you should try to evaluate the worth of Secret Wars, unless you're doing so through the eyes of 7-14yo boys, which were its target audience. Otherwise you're always gonna be missing a trick. Sure, we can discuss the quality of its plot, scripting and art, along with its overall worth, as adults. But unless we also take into account how it was received by young lads at the time, you're not gonna get the full picture. Myself, I was 11 or 12 as SW was coming out, and as a result I have a real big soft spot for it. The fact that it was conceived as a way to sell tie-in toys made no difference to me at the time. In fact, the toy line just kind of made it cooler (although I was moving out of the age where I bought action figures and so didn't pick up any of them). I guess that at 17 I was too old to appreciate it. All I know is that I was reaching a completist phase in my collecting and I quit in the middle of a mini-series, which was something I absolutely would not have done at that time unless the book was utter garbage. I think the age thing is definitely a factor that shouldn't be underestimated. And I'm not even saying that it was a great piece of comic literature or anything -- even by the standards of contemporary Marvel output, there were many better comics on the stands at that point. But what Secret Wars did do very well was tap into pre-pubescent boys' desire to see a huge superhero punch-up -- the sort of thing that they would enact on the living room floor with their action figures -- on the comics page. But yeah, by the time that I was 17 myself, I was definitely wanting something with much more literary, adult and gritty. So, I can totally see how and why you dismissed it at the time. Had you been 10 or thereabouts when it was published, I suspect your reaction might've been different. Who knows? Secret Wars was just too long... I don't disagree with that at all. Even at the time I remember thinking it was going on a bit. And re-reading it now when I want a nostalgia kick, I do think it could've easily been a 6-issue series.
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Post by berkley on Feb 24, 2023 1:17:54 GMT -5
I missed both of them when they were out and probably wouldn't have liked them if I had seen them and read them, since I had lost my taste for Marvel in general and even for what most comics readers then and now would consider the better Marvel series, e.g. Miller's Daredevil. I was reading the odd DC series like Saga of the Swamp Thing and Teen Titans and I liked Kirby's solo work at this time, like Captain Vctory, but I doubt Super Powers would have attracted me, as I was already a bit of a "purist" when it came to the New Gods and disliked mixing them with Superman, etc. I also don't care too much for Kirby's art on this series and imagine I would have felt the same then, though if the story attracted me enough I'd probably overlook it.
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Post by Chris on Feb 24, 2023 1:58:02 GMT -5
Between the two series, I was all-in for Secret Wars, and put off by Kirby's art on Super Powers I also don't care too much for Kirby's art on this series and imagine I would have felt the same then, though if the story attracted me enough I'd probably overlook it. Kirby only drew the covers and the final issue of the series. The other four were drawn by Adrian Gonzalez with inks by Pablo Marcos, Alan Kupperberg, and Gonzales himself. So if you didn't like the art on most of the series, that's fine, but it mostly wasn't Kirby. Kirby did draw one of the sequels, but driver1980 specifically referred to the 1984 series. And the last series was drawn by Carmine Infantino, so again, not Kirby.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2023 6:36:12 GMT -5
As for Super Powers, I don't remember ever hearing about it at the time (was it even published in the UK, like SW was?). Even nowadays, I know very little about the series. I’m not sure. The second issue was reprinted in an an annual that also included reprints of The Brave and The Bold and DC Comics Presents. Later on, I got the remaining issues at a jumble sale. Seeing that second issue reprinted in an annual whetted my appetite for seeing the first issue - and the remainder of the series. Here’s the annual’s cover:
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2023 6:38:29 GMT -5
Incidentally, at the time, there was a peculiar “cross-pollination” between the series and the 60s Filmation cartoons. Some Filmation cartoons (Superman, Superboy, Batman, and Aquaman) were released on videotapes with “Super Powers” branding:
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Post by tarkintino on Feb 24, 2023 9:32:30 GMT -5
Between the two series, I was all-in for Secret Wars, and put off by Kirby's art on Super Powers. Yes, even at the time, I knew he was a legend, but his art on that series was not his best, by any stretch of the imagination. Secret Wars had Mike Zeck, and teased (and fulfilled) some actual changes to the characters. They might not have lasted forever (thank God), but there were changes. I felt like Super Powers was outside of continuity and didn't "matter" (this was important to me at the time). As far as the action figures go... didn't care... I was in high school, and hadn't bought an action figure in forever. I do concede that the Super Powers action figures are superior, in hindsight. Secret Wars was the product of Marvel's intensifying direction at the time: bloated and overblown would-be "epics" (probably inspired by equally bloated sci-fi and action films of the same period) which certainly informed the coming disasters of the publisher's late 80s / 1990s era. There was not a thing about SW that warranted its over-advertised existence, and for all of the implications suggested by the regular titles which sent the various heroes off on the adventure, SW was meaningless. I don't care how many Marvel fanboys/girls recall SW being "aaawwweesommme", it was not.
Super Powers was almost as heartless; DC already tried a toy tie-in comic with 1968's Captain Action, but that short-lived series' stories were not (just?) thinly-veiled sales pitches for Ideal's action figure line--there was some attempt to give life and heart to the heroes. That cannot be said of Super Powers (GAH! That title!), which was the equivalent of lighting a brick of firecrackers: once its blown out (oh wow...), there's nothing of interest left, but there's an unpleasant odor. That's all. As tonebone noted, Kirby's cover art was off-putting: he simply was a shadow of his former self with no Shores, et al., to add softening humanity to the big action. Interior artist Adrian Gonzales was the textbook definition of "generic comic book action", and if one compared him to artists most associated with certain characters of the period, Gonzales' work was doomed to be seen as 2nd rate.
Both miniseries are among the comics I've never had an interest in revisiting because the experiences were so awful.
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