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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 1, 2023 11:40:00 GMT -5
The thing is, there is a whole segment of the manga world that was not slavishly done in the style of Tezuka, who was the big inspiration for the big eyes and a lot of the visual tropes. The samurai comics, especially, were done in a more realistic style, as were many others. The studio systems kind of reinforced the Tezuka style so much and that kind of stuff was a large part of what companies like Tokyo Pop were importing, in the 90s, which is part of why it never gelled with me. I don't mind the style; but, visually, it has a kind of generic quality, when not in the hands of someone who brings their individuality to it. I preferred more the style of people like Kojima and Ryoichi Ikegami, who drew Crying Freeman and the manga Spider-Man comics. There is also a kind of in-between style, like with Area 88, as Kaouro Shintani started out working in the shojo world, as an assistant to Leiji Matsumoto. Tezuka influenced a lot of shojo artists; but there were others, too, which gave them a different quality, often.
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Post by commond on Mar 1, 2023 18:37:17 GMT -5
Suffice to say, the stuff that makes it over to the States is just the tip of the iceberg. One of the more interesting aspects of shonen manga to me has been how successful female creators have been with shonen works. Over time, they've brought a lot of shojo elements to shonen comics and made the narratives even richer. Plus, it's great to see female comic book creators doing so well commercially.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Mar 2, 2023 22:14:51 GMT -5
Trigun I watched the anime for.. definitely one of the 1st ones I watched, in fact, as it was being released on Adult Swim (pehaps for the first time in English?) Its weirdly awesome.
Stuff like Oh my Goddess and Excel Saga is too fan service-y for me.
I ready the first two volumes of Spy x Family not too long ago, it was pretty good. Ancient Magus Bride I read the first couple of when it 1st came out, didn't do anything for me.
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 3, 2023 5:16:55 GMT -5
Seriously thinking about getting into Sof' Boy now... Not me, I'm looking for a vomit bag...
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Post by zaku on Mar 3, 2023 5:58:31 GMT -5
I ready the first two volumes of Spy x Family not too long ago, it was pretty good. The anime is even better.
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 3, 2023 7:06:43 GMT -5
I liked Gen-13 a whole lot at the time. It felt very different and current back then. But you know what? It really didn't age well...or maybe I just changed. I hung on to my issues of the series well into the 2000s, but I just started to dislike the series and its characters more and more each time I re-visited them. I eventually sold my extensive run on eBay and I can't say I've ever regretted it. But yeah, it certainly captured something of the '90s Gen X grunge/slacker zeitgeist and definitely made its mark because of that. I completed this series a few years ago and have yet to read it to the end. I really liked this book , I will agree that the references are dated. I read a few books a while ago and It didn't capture the magic that it had back then. One thing about the book it had really good artists in it's run. Campbell, The late AL Rio, Gary Frank come to mind as the top talent that drew the book.
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 3, 2023 7:17:40 GMT -5
Early Stormwatch kind of illustrates why I skipped most early Image books. It's not bad, but there is nothing unique about it.
I find it a bit strange that when the Image 7 left Marvel to start their own company, comic readers expected something totally different from their work at the big two. Isn't it enough that they just wanted to KEEP their creations and most of the money from it? It makes me laugh that fans wanted them to start doing humor or funny animal books. They were going to do what made them stars.
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 3, 2023 7:23:12 GMT -5
Haha, yeah, and I would have read more if I didn't have to leave my reading room. When I don't have work or any other obligations, I just sit at a desk isolated from the rest of the world with good lighting and a stack of comics and read. I am the type of person that can read a comic until I run out of pages to read, if that comic keeps me entertained, so any long series causes the danger of a day-and-night affair haha. But it has to be something really immersive to me/fitting my mood at the time. Wow, I try to do the same when reading comics. It feels like I can never get privacy in my house to curl up to a stack of comics anymore.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 3, 2023 12:21:35 GMT -5
Early Stormwatch kind of illustrates why I skipped most early Image books. It's not bad, but there is nothing unique about it.
I find it a bit strange that when the Image 7 left Marvel to start their own company, comic readers expected something totally different from their work at the big two. Isn't it enough that they just wanted to KEEP their creations and most of the money from it? It makes me laugh that fans wanted them to start doing humor or funny animal books. They were going to do what made them stars. I would argue that the issues people had were not about them doing something different. It was about the disingenuous statements they made in interviews, about being held back, about editorial interference and that writers were unnecessary. Their actions proved that they had no ideas of their own, apart from Larsen's Savage Dragon, which pre-dated his Marvel work. Even Spawn was a mix of everything McFarlane had done. The reality was that they just didn't want to have to meet an editors deadlines and share royalties and wanted people to feed their egoes. So, their books were chronically late, until Diamond threatened to cut them off or levy hefty fines for not delivering (or make it all returnable and let the Image guys find out about real publishing economics) and they read like a 3rd grade writing assignment, in far too many cases, to the point they had to recruit writers to make sense out of their X-Men pastiches. That's what a large segment of their critics were talking about. certainly this one and my sentiments were echoed quite a lot, in the pages of the Comic Buyer's Guide, while the Comics Journal was even harsher (weren't they always?) I had the same criticism for John Byrne's Dark Horse work, except he was a better writer than the Image founders and he at least made them readable pastiches and even intriguing ones, in Next Men. I would have preferred more Torch of Liberty stories, as they were fun and not beholden to 90s stylistics. Danger Unlimited was too much of a pastiche and babe wasn't especially funny. Even so, you could read them for what they were. The Image guys acted like they were refugees from a Soviet Gulag, when they had been living at a country club and now got their own Playboy Mansion to mess around, until the mortgage came due and the cried for help. That was my criticism. If they were being held back creatively, as they claimed, they certainly didn't do much to counter that, when they had total freedom. To me, they came across as whiny little @#$%s, who didn't get their butts smooched enough by fans and editors and wanted to be rock stars, in a world of karaoke. But, then, I'm a cynical and grumpy old &@$%@*!. Even in the 90s, when I was a younger, cynical and grumpy &@$%@*!. I blame it on the Watergate hearings interrupting my childhood viewing of Space Angel, New 3 Stooges, Underdog, Tennessee Tuxedo and Rocky & Bullwinkle. When you can't see Frostbite Falls, visit Mr Whoopee, fly with the Starduster, or tell chowderheads to shut up, it colors your world.
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Post by Batflunkie on Mar 3, 2023 12:23:09 GMT -5
Early Stormwatch kind of illustrates why I skipped most early Image books. It's not bad, but there is nothing unique about it.
I find it a bit strange that when the Image 7 left Marvel to start their own company, comic readers expected something totally different from their work at the big two. Isn't it enough that they just wanted to KEEP their creations and most of the money from it? It makes me laugh that fans wanted them to start doing humor or funny animal books. They were going to do what made them stars. Well, they did publish Spitting Image But it is very telling that most of the early titles were little more than straight rehashes of things that they had done with Marvel. But then you had stuff like The Maxx, which morphs into something that would be more in line with something Vertigo would publish (which I'm aware of the connotations of such as sentence as Keith did the artwork for The Sandman and there's even a picture of Gaiman's Death pinned to the chalkboard in the Sarah issue)
I also wonder what would have happened if the Image gang had gone with Goodwin's idea to just rehaul Epic?
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 3, 2023 14:37:44 GMT -5
I find it a bit strange that when the Image 7 left Marvel to start their own company, comic readers expected something totally different from their work at the big two. Isn't it enough that they just wanted to KEEP their creations and most of the money from it? It makes me laugh that fans wanted them to start doing humor or funny animal books. They were going to do what made them stars. I would argue that the issues people had were not about them doing something different. It was about the disingenuous statements they made in interviews, about being held back, about editorial interference and that writers were unnecessary. Their actions proved that they had no ideas of their own, apart from Larsen's Savage Dragon, which pre-dated his Marvel work. Even Spawn was a mix of everything McFarlane had done. The reality was that they just didn't want to have to meet an editors deadlines and share royalties and wanted people to feed their egoes. So, their books were chronically late, until Diamond threatened to cut them off or levy hefty fines for not delivering (or make it all returnable and let the Image guys find out about real publishing economics) and they read like a 3rd grade writing assignment, in far too many cases, to the point they had to recruit writers to make sense out of their X-Men pastiches. That's what a large segment of their critics were talking about. certainly this one and my sentiments were echoed quite a lot, in the pages of the Comic Buyer's Guide, while the Comics Journal was even harsher (weren't they always?) I had the same criticism for John Byrne's Dark Horse work, except he was a better writer than the Image founders and he at least made them readable pastiches and even intriguing ones, in Next Men. I would have preferred more Torch of Liberty stories, as they were fun and not beholden to 90s stylistics. Danger Unlimited was too much of a pastiche and babe wasn't especially funny. Even so, you could read them for what they were. The Image guys acted like they were refugees from a Soviet Gulag, when they had been living at a country club and now got their own Playboy Mansion to mess around, until the mortgage came due and the cried for help. That was my criticism. If they were being held back creatively, as they claimed, they certainly didn't do much to counter that, when they had total freedom. To me, they came across as whiny little @#$%s, who didn't get their butts smooched enough by fans and editors and wanted to be rock stars, in a world of karaoke. But, then, I'm a cynical and grumpy old &@$%@*!. Even in the 90s, when I was a younger, cynical and grumpy &@$%@*!. I blame it on the Watergate hearings interrupting my childhood viewing of Space Angel, New 3 Stooges, Underdog, Tennessee Tuxedo and Rocky & Bullwinkle. When you can't see Frostbite Falls, visit Mr Whoopee, fly with the Starduster, or tell chowderheads to shut up, it colors your world. Allow me to retort: There WERE critics that complained that the books were similar. So what if they were? The Image 7 left books that they enjoyed doing and wanted to continue along similar lines. Were they held back? Ask any writer/creator if they did 100% of what they wanted to do and I'm sure they will all say they were denied some stories they wanted to do. This is why people like Miller and Starlin left to do unimpeded stories their way. You say they were delaying books with Diamond. Of course hey were. It's called growing pains. They went from getting a paycheck for monthly work, to doing every facet of the business. In essence , they had to learn and do everything about producing a comic. They were their own company suddenly. In the big two, they have dozens of hands that handle a comic from start to finish, now someone like Jim Lee was doing all of those jobs all himself. You claim they whined because they wanted to be rockstars. News flash- they WERE rock stars. Never before had creators left to start their own company and had this type of fan following go with them. When they did store signings, they were mobbed. Credit where credit is due, sir.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 3, 2023 14:53:46 GMT -5
I would argue that the issues people had were not about them doing something different. It was about the disingenuous statements they made in interviews, about being held back, about editorial interference and that writers were unnecessary. Their actions proved that they had no ideas of their own, apart from Larsen's Savage Dragon, which pre-dated his Marvel work. Even Spawn was a mix of everything McFarlane had done. The reality was that they just didn't want to have to meet an editors deadlines and share royalties and wanted people to feed their egoes. So, their books were chronically late, until Diamond threatened to cut them off or levy hefty fines for not delivering (or make it all returnable and let the Image guys find out about real publishing economics) and they read like a 3rd grade writing assignment, in far too many cases, to the point they had to recruit writers to make sense out of their X-Men pastiches. That's what a large segment of their critics were talking about. certainly this one and my sentiments were echoed quite a lot, in the pages of the Comic Buyer's Guide, while the Comics Journal was even harsher (weren't they always?) I had the same criticism for John Byrne's Dark Horse work, except he was a better writer than the Image founders and he at least made them readable pastiches and even intriguing ones, in Next Men. I would have preferred more Torch of Liberty stories, as they were fun and not beholden to 90s stylistics. Danger Unlimited was too much of a pastiche and babe wasn't especially funny. Even so, you could read them for what they were. The Image guys acted like they were refugees from a Soviet Gulag, when they had been living at a country club and now got their own Playboy Mansion to mess around, until the mortgage came due and the cried for help. That was my criticism. If they were being held back creatively, as they claimed, they certainly didn't do much to counter that, when they had total freedom. To me, they came across as whiny little @#$%s, who didn't get their butts smooched enough by fans and editors and wanted to be rock stars, in a world of karaoke. But, then, I'm a cynical and grumpy old &@$%@*!. Even in the 90s, when I was a younger, cynical and grumpy &@$%@*!. I blame it on the Watergate hearings interrupting my childhood viewing of Space Angel, New 3 Stooges, Underdog, Tennessee Tuxedo and Rocky & Bullwinkle. When you can't see Frostbite Falls, visit Mr Whoopee, fly with the Starduster, or tell chowderheads to shut up, it colors your world. Allow me to retort: There WERE critics that complained that the books were similar. So what if they were? The Image 7 left books that they enjoyed doing and wanted to continue along similar lines. Were they held back? Ask any writer/creator if they did 100% of what they wanted to do and I'm sure they will all say they were denied some stories they wanted to do. This is why people like Miller and Starlin left to do unimpeded stories their way. You say they were delaying books with Diamond. Of course hey were. It's called growing pains. They went from getting a paycheck for monthly work, to doing every facet of the business. In essence , they had to learn and do everything about producing a comic. They were their own company suddenly. In the big two, they have dozens of hands that handle a comic from start to finish, now someone like Jim Lee was doing all of those jobs all himself. You claim they whined because they wanted to be rockstars. News flash- they WERE rock stars. Never before had creators left to start their own company and had this type of fan following go with them. When they did store signings, they were mobbed. Credit where credit is due, sir. No credit; cash only!
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Post by arfetto on Mar 7, 2023 13:43:14 GMT -5
I used to think that shonen manga was just for kids, but once my daughter started reading manga, I discovered how well crafted the shonen stuff is. Then it made sense to me why they have such a broad appeal. I know Ed Piskor is big on the Shonen Jump strips. I hope you read some other 90s stuff from the golden era. Looking forward to the Optic Nerve stuff. There was a real sweet spot in that series where I started to really dig it.
I have about 600 volumes of manga, most of it is probably stuff that started in the '90s or had a stretch of volumes in the '90s and I would say a good amount of it is shonen, so stay tuned haha.
Today I read:
I will write about it in my next post.
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Post by MDG on Mar 7, 2023 14:49:46 GMT -5
I used to think that shonen manga was just for kids, but once my daughter started reading manga, I discovered how well crafted the shonen stuff is. Then it made sense to me why they have such a broad appeal. I know Ed Piskor is big on the Shonen Jump strips. I hope you read some other 90s stuff from the golden era. Looking forward to the Optic Nerve stuff. There was a real sweet spot in that series where I started to really dig it. I have about 600 volumes of manga, most of it is probably stuff that started in the '90s or had a stretch of volumes in the '90s and I would say a good amount of it is shonen, so stay tuned haha. Today I read:
I will write about it in my next post.
I read a few of these as they came out and remember enjoying them very much. Besides being well-written and drawn, I appreciated that he paid attention to the overall design of the package.
I don't know how much Tomine I've read in the intervening years but I recently got The Loneliness of the Long-Distance Cartoonist out of the local library and was pretty disappointed. It's basically a collection of vignettes about the many disappointments and humiliations when you're working as an indie cartoonist, but there didn;t seem to be any sense of... I don't know, irony? No universal observations? I found it a slog and wasn't even sure it was supposed to be funny until I tracked down a couple of reviews. (I recently read Noah Van Sciver's As a Cartoonist and, unfortunately, got much of the same vibe. And this was right after finding his Joseph Smith and the Mormons excellent and hard to put down.)
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Post by commond on Mar 7, 2023 19:13:19 GMT -5
I haven't read The Loneliness of the Long-Distance Cartoonist, but I didn't much care for the autobiographical stories in the most recent issues of Optic Nerve.
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